This will be my first post to the Abortion Gang, started by our lovely @IAmDrTiller from Twitter. I'm excited to join XD
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I wish I could tell you some dramatic story about how I became pro-choice. I wish I could tell you a story of an illegal, botched abortion, or a story of an experience that I had with abortion or with a pregnancy. I wish I could tell you a story that might make you cry. I wish I could tell you of one life-changing, significant event that led me from being an anti-choicer to a pro-choice activist.
The truth is, I can't.
My anti-choice to pro-choice transformation did not occur because of a single event. It was a process. I started out as an anti-choicer in my early teens. I believed that, if a woman or girl was "slutty" enough to get pregnant, that she should have to go through the pregnancy. I did not have a tiny bit of compassion for the woman in the situation. It was more about punishment for having sex than anything else. I don't even think I cared about the embryo very much, if at all. In other words, I was a typical anti.
My transition was big learning experience, As I matured, I learned of compassion. As I learned to be compassionate, and as I learned to love people, my views in regards to abortion became more and more liberal. I came to recognize the fact that a person owns hir body, regardless of what is living inside of it. I learned that each person who has an abortion has her own story in life, and that story deserves to be heard. It deserves to be listened to, and not judged. I learned that pregnancy is not a black and white issue. Women are human beings and, just like any other human being, they are capable of making mistakes. I learned that it's not my place to judge and to blame people, but to listen and to educate as well as I can. By the age of 16 or 17, I became a pro-choice activist (or as much of an activist that I could have been with restrictive, anti-choice parents). I do not think that it's a coincidence that, as soon as I learned to love people, I became pro-choice.
So, why am I pro-choice? Because I trust women. Why do I trust women? Because I trust and love humanity. It's that simple.
Thursday, March 18, 2010
65 comments:
***PLEASE READ***
Due to constant spam and derailing coming from a few antis, I am now making this blog a "safe place". This does not mean that I won't allow opposing views. It means that I'm not longer going to allow hateful or unrelated/spammy comments. This will continue on until the anti-choice spammers get bored with harassing me and the people who post here, and is especially relevant when it comes to the topic of rape. I hope this doesn't deter any respectful people from commenting. :)
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Nicely said! I love hearing PC's talk about compassion driving us. Partially b/c I know it must grate on the AC's so much, but also b/c so many see us as uncaring and cold people. I myself am vegan and get grief for being vegan and PC. To me it goes hand in hand, but others don't see it that way. Of course they also attach sentience where there isn't any (and would claim the same from me). It is running in these kinds of constant ideological circles that keep me in shape, tho, so I welcome their challenges. So it is always good to hear other PC peeps shouting out proudly about their compassion!
ReplyDeleteAnyway, again, well said, and always nice to hear.
The Queen said. . .
ReplyDeleteThe PCGal doth protest too much, methinks.
J.P. Notices:
ReplyDeleteQuotes by your non-judgemental, people loving PCGal about things she would rather do than go through with an unwanted pregnancy:
"Have sex with an anti (pukes in mouth)
Listen to a middle school orchestra play for hours on end.
Watch Tom & Jerry with my 5 year old cousin for 4 hours straight (ugh, a marathon)"
How does PCGal really feel about ALL of us humans who are already born, especially those who disagree with her? (Sympathies to little cousin and any one having sex with PCGal, anti-anything). People who love humanity do not make unloving comments such as this.
How is your child, Parrot. We've noticed you took this statement off. Maybe you are maturing a bit. Is Parrot a replacement child maybe?
P.S. Some of us actually see the work, dedication and love middle schoolers put into their concerts and we Love Them for it.
You expect me to have sex with someone who thinks that I'm an object, not a person?
ReplyDelete"How does PCGal really feel about ALL of us humans who are already born, especially those who disagree with her?"
I love all of humanity (save for people like rapists and pro-rapists, I don't really have a place in my heart for them). Just because I get a headache listening to middle school orchestras and watching Tom & Jerry doesn't mean that I don't love humanity.
"How is your child, Parrot. We've noticed you took this statement off. Maybe you are maturing a bit."
I took that comment off because she died last Tuesday. Ah, sensitivity. It's so, so rare on the anti-choice side.
"P.S. Some of us actually see the work, dedication and love middle schoolers put into their concerts and we Love Them for it."
Yeah, I do, too. I used to play in a middle school orchestra, myself. That doesn't mean that I have fun listening to them for hours.
P.S. My BF says that he doesn't need your sympathy, and that he enjoys having sex with me.
J.P.
ReplyDeleteYour post sounds more like you are rebelling against restrictive parents than anything else. Forgiving them for making any real or percieved mistakes in raising you will assist you in forgiving and loving others who think differently then you. You can't say you love all humanity until you love ALL of humanity, including the rapists and pro-rapists (the world is filled with them you know.) Forgiveness is an important part here too. Until you can forgive all, you are not able to truly love any and will take out your anger on those weaker than you.
Why accuse me of being insensitive when I was not aware of your bird's passing? Why not let everyone know when your parrot died since you obviously thought of it as a child. One would think it was a pretty big deal as attached as you were to it.
"he enjoys having sex with me." I'm sure he does. Enjoy sex with someone is way different than loving them (I'm sure he also loves to have sex with you). Ask yourself how long he would stick around if you stopped having sex with him. You have much to learn about objectification and other topics you claim to be an expert on.
P.S. I agree with The Queen
My transformation had nothing to do with "rebelling" against my parents. Basically, all you've done is read my post and completely disregard everything that I said that you can't manipulate, and you've made up the rest. What is the point in this?
ReplyDeleteQuite frankly, I don't give a crap about what you say about me for not being able to forgive someone who completely ruined a huge part of my life. As far as I'm concerned, rapists aren't people as much as they are monsters. Judge me all you wish. I don't need your acceptance.
"Why accuse me of being insensitive when I was not aware of your bird's passing?"
Because you judged me and insulted me before even asking me why I got rid of the comment. It's like screaming insults at a woman for being pregnant outside of marriage, and when she tells you that she got pregnant from rape, faking sympathy for her. Don't bother faking sympathy now. I won't fall for it.
"Why not let everyone know when your parrot died since you obviously thought of it as a child. One would think it was a pretty big deal as attached as you were to it."
First of all, she's not an IT, she's a SHE.
So because I didn't tell YOU all about my personal life, I must not care? Because I didn't tell YOU about what happened, the fact that I've been bawling non-stop and pretty much refusing to eat since Tuesday means nothing? You have an entitlement issue. If you'd spend two seconds doing some research, you'd see that I've been very open about it on my Twitter page. I haven't mentioned it here because I was expecting comments like yours.
""he enjoys having sex with me." I'm sure he does. Enjoy sex with someone is way different than loving them"
I agree, but we can enjoy sex with each other and love each other at the same time.
"I don't even think I cared about the embryo very much, if at all. In other words, I was a typical anti."
ReplyDeleteThis statement shows you don't give a crap about pro-lifers either. It's saying that the typical pro-lifers doesn't care about the unborn.
If you don't think you cared about the unborn when you claimed to be pro-life, you were never truly pro-life in the first place. If you had truly been pro-life you would realize the humanity of the unborn and would also realize that by not speaking up for the unborn you are condoning the murdering of them.
You would have also never been able to switch to a pro-abort view had you fully seen the unborn as human beings worthy of protection, just like the rest of us. True pro-lifers can see through your baloney.
As far as your hatred of rapists. No one can completely ruin a huge part of your life without your permission. Don't give this to him/them. Love the sinner (see the humanity in them). Just hate the sin. If you have never seen the movie Dead Man Walking, it may help you distance yourself a bit.
I know you think I can't feel sorrow for your going through the loss of a pet, but I can. I've lost pets too. I don't follow you or anyone else on Twitter. I cannot however compare the loss of a pet to the loss of a child. To do so would be grossly insensitive to parents who have lost a child. That is why many of the pro-lifers saw your referring to a parrot as a child as very insensitive. That is, you see nonexistent humanity in a pet but cannot see the existing humanity in the unborn human.
Who is the insensitive one? Who is the oversensitive one?
Jenn Paul
"No one can completely ruin a huge part of your life without your permission."
ReplyDeleteI did not give permission for someone to rape me. Stop trying to blame rape victims for being hurt after rape. My rapist was the one who raped me. I did not rape me, so therefore, it was NOT my fault that a huge part of my life was ruined.
Again, I don't need your acceptance. I don't care that you think being raped was a walk in the park. I don't care that you think I'm "insensitive" for grieving over my bird. Your nasty comments about and to me have no weight, coming from an anti-choice, anti-woman person like yourself.
Wow. Your comments speak for themselves. Where do I say you gave permission to someone to rape you? Duh. If you had given permission it wouldn't be rape. Your earlier quote was,
ReplyDelete"I don't give a crap about what you say about me for not being able to forgive someone who completely ruined a huge part of my life."
YOU are allowing someone's violent and totally unacceptable actions to "completely" ruin a "huge" part of your "life." Are you saying that rape victims are and always will be partially "ruined" people and cannot move past a victim mentality? Are you saying that rape victims should not or cannot forgive their rapists? (you forgive more for yourself than for others by the way).
YOU are choosing to stay in a place as a victim thereby in a place where you are willing to victimize others. In addition you are turning your anger onto others and projecting this anger onto those who believe you and other victims of violent crimes are capable of not only forgiving but also of becoming whole again.
Where do you see where I state you are "insensitive" for grieving over your pet? I see your insensitivity in comparing a pet to a human child and supporting the aborting of humans.
I'm sure you are aware that about 1 in 3 females are raped in their lifetimes. I was raped at age 20.
Take a deep breath. . . .
"YOU are allowing someone's violent and totally unacceptable actions to "completely" ruin a "huge" part of your "life.""
ReplyDeleteNo, I did not "allow" it to happen. My rapist forced it upon me. Again, stop blaming the victim on the rapist's actions.
"Are you saying that rape victims are and always will be partially "ruined""
"Are you saying that rape victims should not or cannot forgive their rapists?"
Where did I ever say that I speak for all rape survivors? I speak for myself and myself alone.
"YOU are choosing to stay in a place as a victim"
Again, I did not choose to be raped. I did not choose to be in pain. You are pretending that I'm in pain because I want to be in pain.
"'he enjoys having sex with me.' I'm sure he does. Enjoy sex with someone is way different than loving them (I'm sure he also loves to have sex with you). Ask yourself how long he would stick around if you stopped having sex with him. You have much to learn about objectification and other topics you claim to be an expert on."
ReplyDeleteSo men use relationships to get sex, and women use sex to get relationships. Why am I not surprised to hear this attitude from a "pro-lifer?"
What if a woman wouldn't stick around with a man who stopped having sex with her? Would there be something morally wrong with her?
Way to reinforce PC Gal's contention that "pro-life" is more about enforcing sexual mores than concern for embryos.
I loved this post! It's interesting to know that you were once anti-choice, as I did not know that. I was always prochoice (well, since I could understand what abortion was). However, I can see that it is easy for impressonable youth to fall for antichoice lies and/or be heavily influenced by antichoice parents/guardians (or other family). I'm glad you're prochoice now, and not afraid to post your thoughts. I love to read your blog! Btw, I hope you are coping with Gabby's death. I will send some good vibes your way!
ReplyDeleteAll I am saying is what you've already stated. This being that your rape:
ReplyDeletein your words, "completely ruined a huge part of my life."
I too have pain from being raped. I CHOOSE not to let it ruin a huge (or any) part of my life. It is your CHOICE to remain where you are or move on. To state that I would deny a rape victim's pain is a completely asinine comment on your part.
Quit projecting your anger on me because I see the humanity in every human being, whether they be pro-life or not, rapist or not, murderer or not, born or not.
Life begins at conception and because you deny the unborn's humanity doesn't lessen your humanity in my eyes. Love the sinner, not the sin.
Jenn Paul
That's great that you can somehow "choose" not to be traumatized. I can't. I can't "choose" my emotions. I can choose how I react to those emotions, but saying that I can choose them is just ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteErica and Arium-
Thanks for your support. It's always such a relief to see pro-choice comments after subjecting myself to anti-choice hatred.
What Arium said was so true. Antis always assume that, in a relationship, it's always the man that "takes advantage" of the woman. I love sex just as much as my boyfriend loves sex, and neither of us are using each other. Somehow, antis always want me to trust them more than my own boyfriend.
By the way, Anonymous, I somehow doubt that you love abortion providers. Especially considering the fact that you support a cause that gets them murdered.
ReplyDeleteHate the sin. Love the sinner. Not a new concept.
ReplyDeleteJenn Paul
Chelsey comments:
ReplyDeleteWhine, Whine, Whine. Can you do anything but whine about how wrong and bad "antis" are, how much you hate rapists and pro-rapists, how restrictive and damaging your parents were, even how the last woman was being insensitive about a dead bird (you can't stop crying and can't even eat now!).
And to top it off you have this little following of enablers who keep you in this whiny victim role.
Why not use some of this energy and adopt a few unwanted babies. Or volunteer at a nursing home. Or go pick up litter. Or volunteer at a homeless shelter. You'd have a hell of a lot less time and energy to WHINE: "WAAAA! WAAAA! WAAAA! All antis are out to get me!"
Yes, I'm very sorry for going through a normal grieving process. Oh wait, no I'm not. I have no reason to be sorry because you disapprove of me. I'm not looking for your acceptance.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, where did I ever whine about how restrictive and "damaging" my parents were? I love my parents.
Anonymous\Jenn Paul-
ReplyDeleteThe only "hate" I can see ProChoiceGal projecting is hating your lack of respect for a dear life which was recently lost.
Perhaps if you cared about more than just embryos and fetuses, you would see that.
I'm so sorry to hear about your loss PCG, I fully understand that losing a beloved pet is just like losing a family member.
ReplyDeleteAs for the "just get over it" attitude toward rape victims, I'm sorry that that's completely insensitive bullshit. It's great if a person is able to get past an assault quickly and easily.
However, if another person has trouble and ends up struggling over things for years, that doesn't mean that person is any less strong or capable. Or that they're letting it happen.
Telling a victim how they should behave after an assault is victim blaming just as much as telling the victim what they should have done differently during the assault.
And I'm positive your parents love you more than anything else in the world.
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to look to me or any other person for acceptance. I don't see where anyone has asked you to. When did it ever become about this? It hasn't on our end.
You are already accepted by me and many, many other "antis" as well. Accepting you as another human with equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not mean I have to agree with your views on everything.
This is however about attempting to get you to notice, acknowledge and love the humanity of the unborn and allow them the same rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that you and I both enjoy.
Chelsey
Hey PC Gal, what a difference a day makes, huh? Sorry to her about Gabby. And even sorrier that the entitled asshat brigade has stirred up the emotions that you are going through.
ReplyDeleteAfter the ranting, I have to say that it's great that so many can hand their faith and forgiveness over so willingly b/c the great spirit in the sky's publishing house made such catchy and timeless pearls of wisdom like 'love the sinner, not the sin', even if it contradicts some other pearls like 'an eye for an eye'. Guess the sinner hopes you opt for the former, but I digress. The point I was aiming at, is you have chosen to allow for your faith to guide you in these instances, but some of us, deal with things ourselves and not pass it off to another source.
Most of your arguments against PC Gal all seem grounded in a religious perspective that she obviously doesn't share, and continuing the unnecessary tirades against her only make that perspective (and even to some, that religion) look bad. Jenn Paul you have kept your composure but continue to push answers at her that don't fit with her stance, and rather than acknowledge that people are different and all have to deal with things on our own terms, you keep your dogmatic 'solutions' and parable-esque 'wisdom' belligerently firing at her as if she just hasn't considered your point when she repeatedly tells you she has.
The reason I point that out, is b/c to me it too feels like a behavior that I think comes from Christianity and it's idea of enforced ideals and principles. This a big problem I have with religion. Instead of using what could be a powerful message for helping and healing, the message gets twisted into a call to arms to 'save' others by bringing them over to the fold. So you go on these crusades to make others think and believe like you do, and that spills over, making you unable (or perhaps just unwilling) to allow yourself to take on another's perspective empathetically. I think this stifles and impairs debate. That's why Pro-Choicers are about everyone making their own choice and Pro-Lifers are all about making that choice for you based on their beliefs (even when they contradict science with regards to sentience and the beginning of life).
Anyway, I'm all ranty now, so I'll stop...
You do get to choose whether or not you remain a victim or become a survivor. If you want to move on, you eventually have to own it and stop allowing others to enable you.
ReplyDeleteWhere has anyone told anyone else to "just get over" rape? Just because a "person has trouble and ends up struggling over things" does not excuse him/her from taking her anger out on others who are just expressing opinions. PCG's writings are filled with nasty comments saved for any one who disagrees with her, "antis". Anyone who is honestly open-minded could read through her comments and see how angry she is with "antis". To say differently is only enabling her mindset.
Christian Prochoicer, Perhaps if you cared about all embryos and fetuses, you would notice my respect for all of God's creatures as well. You cannot teach what you do not know.
Jenn Paul
You're judging and attacking me. You wouldn't do that unless you thought that it would hurt me. I don't long for your acceptance, so you're attacks don't bother me.
ReplyDelete"You are already accepted by me and many, many other "antis" as well. Accepting you as another human with equal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not mean I have to agree with your views on everything."
Oh okay, so as long as you pretend to care about our rights (which you don't, because if you did, you'd be pro-choice), it doesn't matter how badly you treat us. Right.
It doesn't matter whether or not the fetus has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Women also have these rights, and forcing them through pregnancies infringes upon those rights.
Last comment was aimed at Chelsey.
ReplyDelete"you would notice my respect for all of God's creatures as well."
ReplyDeleteJust had to add, that if you are saying this and wish to be taken seriously, I would hope that you are a true vegan who extends your compassionate reach to all beings who share this planet. You cannot respect a creature if you eat it...just saying...sorry, that's a hypocrisy I cannot abide silently. :D
Angry Hippie,
ReplyDeleteYour argument could be used in defense of child molesters as well. In fact, some child molesters do use your arguments.
Human life begins at Conception.
Therefore, I am obligated to speak out against abortion which kills this human life.
If I do not do so, I am a hypocrite.
Religion has nothing to do with it.
If you disagree about when human life begins, that is one thing. If you don't believe life begins at conception, then it is your obligation, not mine to state the exact minute it does begin in order that human life be protected (unless you are against the protection of innocent human beings).
However, PCG states that she knows a fetus/embryo is a human life. Therefore, she is stating it is OK to kill another human being. It is your right to defend this thinking. I Choose not to.
Jenn Paul
As a side note, "love the sinner, hate the sin" isn't even from the Bible. It was coined by Gandhi.
ReplyDeleteJenn Paul- I have not seen any respect coming from you for ProChoiceGal, Gabby or any person you've spoken of. It would be good to remember that just because you think you're doing something nice, doesn't mean the other person likes it. If they don't like it- it's not nice.
First off, I am not sure which arguments you are talking about, but I like the subtle insinuation you make. Devious. ;)
ReplyDeleteAs for having to define when life begins, I have many times in the past expressed that I believe life begins at birth. Before that, you have a parasite/host situation wherein the host has the right to do with said parasite as she would to any other parasite living in her body. And though I know my assertion is not conducive with yours, it simply does not matter when life begins. What matters here is the bodily autonomy of the pregnant woman. No one has the right to dictate how her body be used or what it must sustain for any period of time.
This is where the Anti-Choice side always feels like they want to punish women for having and enjoying sex. Again, that's how it always looks in my eyes.
Also, I will go ahead and call bullshit on your whole (knowing when life begins helps us protect it.) Once again, if that were the case, if you or your religion were really concerned with protecting human lives, you wouldn't be trying to force a million unwanted pregnancies into a broken foster system, only to be compounded by a shattered educational system (only being made worse by curriculum sellouts) b/c what truly protects human life is education and a loving base from which to grow. So if you were truly concerned with human lives you would fighting to keep more kids out of these more often than not, damaging situations until these systems were fixed and able to truly care for them.
But then again, this is a fundamental difference in how we view things. :D
Also, you cannot back a religion that abuses children and covers it up, and espouse a love and caring for all beings. That doesn't add up. I hold to my contention that most anti-choicers care only about getting babies born, and then they could care less about the child and what happens to it from there.
Christian Prochoicer, "As a side note, "love the sinner, hate the sin" isn't even from the Bible. It was coined by Gandhi."
ReplyDeleteThanks for the clarification. I was unaware of that. ;)
Angry Hippie,
ReplyDelete"you or your religion"? I don't own a religion. Knowing that Human Life Begins at Conception is not a religion. Although I believe in God, many athiests defend the unborn as well. I will re-state that religion has nothing to do with when life begins.
If you believe that human life begins the moment said "non-human-life" exits the woman, fine. I see this as a very unlightened, shallow and uneducated explanation of when human life begins but defend your right to believe this. After all,we are not all meant to be biology majors.
I contend it DOES matter when life begins, otherwise you are condoning the murder of other human beings for the mere fact that they may cause you hardship and stress (as do most of the people currently in my life and as I have been in the past to others and most certainly will be again in the future if I'm allowed to continue my life process).
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I am unsure if Gandhi, the Bible or John F. Kennedy said this but I sure agree with it. I just see the unborn as an "other" and you don't. So be it.
Angry is an understatement.
Jenn Paul
I looked up the above quote and want to give credit where credit is due. Jesus Christ said in the Sermon on the Mount: “All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.”
ReplyDeleteMy apologies to those I have offended. To offend has not been my intent. Life begins at conception and I have an obligation to speak out for and defend the unborn in spite of taking much heat from those who think their lives are more important because they "own" the womb.
I would hope you would all speak out for my rights if my right to life is ever threatened and I am unable to speak for myself. (My liberties and womb will be a non-issue if I am dead.) Rest assured, I will do the same for you.
Jenn
I would defend your right to life as long as your continued life didn't depend on using another person's body to sustain it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I wouldn't defend your right to force another person to give you an organ so that you can live. Then I would defend the other person's right to bodily autonomy.
This is why the debate about when life begins is irrelevant. When it comes to the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, one person's liberty trumps another person's life if that life depends on infringing on another's liberty.
And saying that someone is unlightened, shallow and uneducated because they disagree as to when life begins, I would say that's a pot/kettle situation. The debate as to when life begins is as much a philosophical debate as it is a scientific one. The primary question being how do you define "life".
Someone giving me an organ is a totally different comparison than that of a human Living in the womb. After the transplant, I could be in China and the giver could be in Timbuktu and we would no longer be dependent on one another. Yours is an unlightened, shallow and uneducated analogy.
ReplyDeletePCG does not disagree as to when life begins so my argument is relative. She just thinks her life is more important than the unborn's life. So this is not a philosophical nor a scientific debate with her. If you question when life begins that is your business. As I've said before, we can't all be biology majors.
Now you state the primary question becomes how does one define life? One defines life based on who you think you are more important than.
The nazis defined human life differently than did the Jews. Slave owners defined life differently than the blacks. You define life differently than me. Define human life how ever you wish. It won't change the fact that human life begins at conception.
Jenn
Chelsey says to VoD:
ReplyDeleteNeither the organ doner or organ reciever loses their life is GUARANTEED to lose their life in the process. Not rocket science.
Jenn- How about you try ASKING me what I believe instead of telling me? Why is this such a difficult thing for antis to do?
ReplyDelete"She just thinks her life is more important than the unborn's life."
Not necessarily. I believe that a person has the right to defend hirself against rape, even if it may take physical force to do so. The same thing applies with pregnancy. If the only way to immediately terminate a pregnancy is to kill the fetus, then so be it.
"If the only way to immediately terminate a pregnancy is to kill the fetus, then so be it." translates into "I am willing to kill and support the killing of other human beings" translates into "She just thinks her life is more important than the unborn's life."
ReplyDeleteNow that everyone reading this knows how PCG really feels about other human beings, I can leave y'all to whine and enable to each other to your Beating Heart's content.
My job here is done.
Abort on! (and in the process know that you have realized, admitted and condoned the killing of other human beings because of your own selfishness).
Jenn Paul
Chelsey states,
ReplyDeleteThe actions of the rapist are causing the woman to have to defend herself.
However, the actions of the woman (almost always but exceptions of course) are causing her to want "defend" herself from "evil" fetus.
Elementary sex ed -- The child did not put itself into your womb, the actions you participated in put him/her there. Not rocket biology.
I'm with Jenn Paul. You anti-innocent humans are Unlightened, Uneducated, and Shallow.
"The (fetus) did not put itself into your womb"
ReplyDeleteYeah, I know that. It doesn't matter. It still doesn't have the right to use the woman's body against her consent.
"Now that everyone reading this knows how PCG really feels about other human beings"
If by that, you mean that everyone knows that I respect other human beings' rights, then I sure hope that you're right!
"Someone giving me an organ is a totally different comparison than that of a human Living in the womb. After the transplant, I could be in China and the giver could be in Timbuktu and we would no longer be dependent on one another."
ReplyDeleteHow is it different? After giving birth, I could be in China and the child could be in Timbuktu and we would no longer be dependent on one another. The bottom line is still that while one is dependent on another, the person being depended on has some level of control over the other person's life.
IE.
If I'm pregnant, the fetus needs to use my body to live. I don't consent so the fetus dies.
If you need an organ and need to use my body to live. I don't consent so you die.
Unless you plan to fight for forced organ donation as well as forced pregnancy, your argument that all life is equal is fallacious.
"Yours is an unlightened, shallow and uneducated analogy."
I kind of love how this is your explanation for everyone who disagrees with you.
"PCG does not disagree as to when life begins so my argument is relative."
I'm not saying your argument with her isn't relative, I said that the "when does life begin" argument isn't relative to the debate as to whether abortion should be legal or not. Abortion is legal now because of personal privacy rights which cover bodily autonomy. If you disagree with the laws, that's what you need to be debating against.
Now, as to the definition of life being a philosophical question. As I said above, this has no bearing on the abortion debate but since I like philosophical discussions I'll roll with it.
The question of what is life is a philosophical question. Just because you think that your theory is 100% true doesn't mean that's actually the case. Most Christians don't believe that God is a philosophical concept either, doesn't mean their correct.
You argue 100% that human life begins at conception. Again, what is life? The sperm is alive, the egg is alive, the embryo is alive. But most wouldn't say that individual sperm or eggs are human lives with rights.
Some people believe that a fertilized egg is a human life before it attaches to the lining of the womb. That's why they believe that birth control sometimes causes abortions and want it outlawed as well.
Some people believe that a fertilized egg is a human life once it has attached itself to the uterine wall.
Some people believe that human life doesn't begin until brain waves are present.
Some people believe that human life doesn't begin until the fetus gains sentience.
Some people believe that human life doesn't begin until the fetus reaches viability.
Many scientists & doctors are uncomfortable making a concrete statement as to when life begins because of the philosophical elements of the question.
If you look at some non pro-life sources you'll find that this is as much of a split in the scientific community as it is in any other.
The Apple Argument Against Abortion by Peter Kreeft.
ReplyDeletePeter's argument has been brought up on this site before. Any takers? Voice of Dissent? I kinda love how you talk in circles because others see your views as shallow, uneducated, and unlightened.
Argue against Peter, paragraph by paragraph before you are so positive that you are not shallow, uneducated and unlightened in regards to your views on abortion.
As others have said on here before, both sides cannot be right. Until I hear your arguments against Peter's, I say he is 100% right and you are 100% wrong.
Sincerely,
Tony
How come so many of the antis here post anonymously? And if they happen to post their names, they don't have a link to their own blogs? Seriously, make your own blog and post there. Your anti-choice friends will thank you. And if you're going to post comments on pro-choice blogs, give the opposition the chance to flood your comments section with our own rhetoric.
ReplyDeleteI actually have a post started where I argue against the Apple Argument. However, it's extremely in depth and is going to take a while to get through.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the apple argument is mostly a discussion of when life begins which doesn't make a difference in the current laws. But he does cover some bodily autonomy arguments which I feel makes it relevant. As well as it being the main argument brought up by the pro-life side and I would like to have a quick link to point to that expresses my opinion on it.
I'd like to hear why you think I'm talking in circles any more so than any other pro-life or pro-choice debater. I believe in the right to bodily autonomy and voice that opinion. You believe that abortion is murder and voice that opinion. How am I talking in circles while you're not?
We all reply to those who disagree trying to clarify our positions. That's not talking in circles, that's a back and forth debate of ideas.
I'm also not the one resorting to ad hominem arguments here. I'm trying to stick to the topic at hand without making it personal.
from Tony:
ReplyDeleteThere is only one argument made by right to lifers. Human Life Begins at Conception. Abortion murders this human life.
You side argues, We realize Life Begins at Conception (majority of us), however we believe the mother should have the right to kill this human being because the human is temporarily in her way and may cause her some hardship and pain.
Put it however you want. This is what your movement claims. End of Argument.
The Truth sometimes hurts. At least is should when it comes to abortion.
P.S. We'd like to see a list of doctors and scientists (with legitimate degrees) that will publicly state that human life does not begin at conception. We can't find any.
"We'd like to see a list of doctors and scientists (with legitimate degrees) that will publicly state that human life does not begin at conception. We can't find any."
ReplyDeleteWell, Tony, I'm not going to take the time to compile a list for you, but here is a quote from "PZ Myers [, who] is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris."
"I'm saying that it is absurd to talk about a life beginning at conception because it didn't begin then: the precursors to the zygote were also alive. The only "beginning" of life that we could talk about occurred a few billion years ago, and even that wasn't discrete, but the product of a gradual progression from chemical replicator to functioning cell, a cline upon which there was no point where one could say that everything before was dead, and everything after was alive. Life is a very fuzzy concept."
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/the_fertilized_egg_is_not_a_hu.php
This is it? One "fuzzy" argument? It's a safe bet that you'd change your tune if it were you people wanted to kill and their reasoning was "Oh well, Life is a very fuzzy concept." With the above argument, killing you would be the exact same as killing a fetus.
ReplyDeleteUnbelievable, Shameful, Selfish in addition to Unenlightened, Uneducated, and Shallow
If abortion weren't so terribly, terribly sad, your arguments would be laughable.
Looking forward to reading your arguments against Peter's.
Sincerely,
Tony
"Put it however you want. This is what your movement claims. End of Argument."
ReplyDeleteTranslation: "I know what YOU believe without asking you! I'm right and you're wrong! LALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"
You're funny ;)
I can't speak for Tony, but I think I'm safe going out on a limb in assuming he/she was asking when does one certain individual human life begin, not when or how life forms started on our planet. Tony?
ReplyDeleteAt what moment in time did your own unique human life scientifically begin, biologically speaking? I was taught this in 7th grade.
Pro-lifers you gotta look up PZ. LOL in addition to SIMP.
We can hear you PCG, you don't have to yell. Geesh.
"How come so many of the antis here post anonymously? And if they happen to post their names, they don't have a link to their own blogs? Seriously, make your own blog and post there. Your anti-choice friends will thank you. And if you're going to post comments on pro-choice blogs, give the opposition the chance to flood your comments section with our own rhetoric."
ReplyDeleteBecause we already know when life begins.
"I'm right and you're wrong." Thanks for FINALLY admitting this PCG. Admitting your wrong is half the battle!!
ReplyDeleteXXXOOOO Chelsey
voicesofdissent,
ReplyDeleteIMO the Apple Argument isn't worth spending much time on. It is so poorly argued that I wouldn't expect it to garner a good grade in an undergraduate philosophy class.
The essay seems to be premised on the claim of fetal personhood, yet it makes no argument to support the validity of the claim. Instead the author challenges the reader to disprove the premise. How feeble!
As another example of an important flaw: The essay does not support the premise that human beings deserve greater rights than other animals.
This section seems to be important:
"Suppose you believe that all human beings have rights. Do you believe that all human beings have rights because they are human beings? Do you dare to do metaphysics? Are human rights "inalienable" because they are inherent in human nature, in the human essence, in the human being, in what humans, in fact, are? Or do you believe that all human beings have rights because some human beings say so — because some human wills have declared that all human beings have rights? If it's the first reason, you are secure against tyranny and usurpation of rights. If it's the second reason, you are not. ..."
If human rights were truly "inalienable," chattel slavery would not be possible. (Apparently we are not really secure against tyranny, therefore it must be the second reason.) This is simply a variation of the tired old argument that without religion/god, there would be no morality.
Yawn!
"I can't speak for Tony, but I think I'm safe going out on a limb in assuming he/she was asking when does one certain individual human life begin, not when or how life forms started on our planet. Tony?"
ReplyDeleteThe idea that there is one specific point when "one certain individual human life begin[s]" has no meaning in the field of biology.
Arium, my article on the apple argument actually starts with a paragraph on how it's pretty much the same old arguments, just worded into philosophical babble.
ReplyDeleteBut I'd still like to do it since it comes up so often and antis seem to think it's the be all end all argument. When it comes up I'd like to be able to post my link and be done with it lol. (like it's ever that easy)
Tony, what do you think of bodily autonomy laws for after a human is born? Do you believe in force organ donation in order to preserve human life after it's born?
If not, what do you feel is the difference between the two?
Oh, I also wanted to address the argument that keeps coming up that grade school kids are taught that life begins at conception.
ReplyDeleteThis is because grade school kids are only taught the most basic principles, not all of which are 100% accurate because at that age kids can't minds can't handle something so complex. It's just like in history when you learn that Columbus discovered America.
It's not until later, usually in college, that you start to learn the intricacies in these subjects and that things aren't as black and white as you were taught in grade school.
How do pro-lifers feel about scientific experiments where they create an embryo specifically for a particular experiment then destroy it after 15 days and start the process over again?
I would posit that none of the scientists who do these experiments believe that a fertilized embryo is a human being. Otherwise they're doing would be extremely unethical.
This is an article by Arthur Caplan, Director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania
If you don't want to read the entire article, here is the excerpt that's relevant.
"Scientists constantly tell me that they have nothing to say about when life begins because it's a political or religious question. That is false. Science has much to say about when life begins. We know that life does not begin at conception. Unless you implant an embryo into a uterine environment and the right chemicals are going back and forth between womb and embryo, there is no potential for life. The other thing we know is that not every conception begins a life."
"There is only one argument made by right to lifers. Human Life Begins at Conception. Abortion murders this human life."
ReplyDeletePoint to me any woman who had an abortion with malicious aforethought or a doctor who performed one with malicious aforethought. Malicious aforethought must be present to prove murder. That's what makes it different from all other types of killing.
And I find it hilarious that people are still making fun of PCG for calling her late parrot her child. She obviously doesn't believe a parrot is a child. She just treated her parrot like one. The anti-choicers truly believe that a zygote is the same as a breathing, sentient, conscious child. So you should be laughing at yourselves.
Thank you for posting the definition of murder FEMily. As a vegan I always cringe when I hear other vegans refer to meat eaters as murderers.
ReplyDeleteMurder is a legal term so obviously anything that results in a legal death isn't murder. I think that using overly emotional terms like that hurts rather than helps an argument.
In these situations I think it's best to focus on your argument as to why a practice is unethical. By calling someone a murderer, you pretty much automatically put up a wall between yourself and and the person you're debating with.
voicesofdissent,
ReplyDeleteIn retrospect having addressed a recent comment to you seems to have left an unintended impression. I did not wish to put you on the defense, leading you to justify to me your desire to cover the Apple Argument in depth.
I'll watch for your rebuttal, and look forward to reading it.
Arium, I didn't feel that way at all. I took it exactly as it was intended :)
ReplyDelete"How do pro-lifers feel about scientific experiments where they create an embryo specifically for a particular experiment then destroy it after 15 days and start the process over again?"
ReplyDeleteAsking this question alone proves your inability to understand complex issues. Or maybe you are just playing dumb which in itself is a sign of your inability to win this argument. Maybe you really don't know that many scientists (and doctors, etc.)have been/are/always will be immoral and unethical?
Why do pro-aborts want to believe words like murder are over emotional? Does it really matter what anyone calls what abortion does to a human life? The result is always the same, a dead human.
What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Which of the terms would your prefer: killing, extermination, eradication, elimination, cutting/vacuuming apart, slaying, executing, slaughtering, bumping off, wasting, snuffing out.
Organ Donation argument = You. are. Desperately. Clutching. at. Slippery. Straws. and. Failing. Miserably. to. Grasp. Any. of. Them. Can't wait for your Apple Argument rebuttal.
"She just treated her parrot like one." Now just treat unborn children like you would your parrot and you'll be fine.(:
Tony
Tony
ReplyDelete"Asking this question alone proves your inability to understand complex issues."
But it's only a complex issue if you believe that the concept of life is a complex issue, which you don't seem to. I agree that the issue is very complex. Since sentience is a huge factor for me, I see no issues with these experiments since the embryos aren't sentient.
I ask questions like these because I honestly want to know where my opponent is coming from. They help to see the intricacies of others beliefs and ways of thinking.
"Why do pro-aborts want to believe words like murder are over emotional?"
Because using words like murderer shuts the debate down and attacks the person not the argument. It's unproductive to the debate.
"Organ Donation argument = You. are. Desperately. Clutching. at. Slippery. Straws. and. Failing. Miserably. to. Grasp. Any. of. Them."
Please explain your feelings surrounding the organ donation argument. I feel it's the heart of the debate and you still haven't addressed it at all. Both laws are based on personal privacy and bodily autonomy.
Please address the arguments I put forth instead of just writing me off as not knowing what I'm talking about. If I'm wrong, explain why you believe I'm wrong with counter points. That's what a debate is.
To Persephone,
ReplyDeleteI refuse to debate with someone who states/defends the following taken from the Abortion Gang blog: "We have sex with anything that moves." Statements like this not only shut down the debate they show your mentality and lack of credibility.
Animals, machines and children all move. Ick.
I hereby am writing you off as not knowing what the hell you are talking about. My Choice.
Tony
Nice intentional misunderstanding of that statement. It's a metaphorical statement on society's idea of sluts. That they'll have sex with anything that moves. It means that some of us are what society would consider sluts.
ReplyDeletePersonally I don't know anyone who doesn't think that sex with animals or children is immoral. Machines are another story :D
You are correct, writing me off rather than countering valid arguments is your choice.
Seriously? That's not what we meant by that and you know it.
ReplyDeletehttp://herestheblood.com/
ReplyDeleteI have so much respect for you and your transformation. I grew up never knowing anything BUT pro-choicedness, which was great, but it's so valuable to hear how others came into it.
ReplyDelete