Providing abortions can be a dangerous job. Abortion doctors aren't like other doctors, in the sense that other doctors don't usually deal with protesters, receive death threats, or survive murder attempts. Abortion providers risk their lives, and prior events have shown us that this risk is very real.
The first abortion provider assassinated in the U.S. was killed today, in 1993. Other murders and murder attempts followed, along with other acts of terrorism such as arson, bombings, and kidnappings, all because these doctors are saving women's lives. Abortion providers are forced to alter their lives in order to protect their own lives, the lives of their families, and the lives of the clinic staff. Simple activities that you and I take for granted, like looking outside of a window, can prove to be dangerous for our providers, as Dr. Warren Hern of Boulder Colorado expresses in this excerpt of the article called "Free Speech That Threatens My Life"
The news of James Kopp’s arrest in France for the 1998 murder of Dr. Barnett Slepian reached me just as I finished performing an abortion for the last patient of the morning. My relief was tempered by the news of the previous day: A judgment against anti-abortion fanatics who want me and other doctors killed had been overturned by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, in California.
The previous afternoon, as I sat by a window in my office talking with a reporter about the appellate court decision, I noticed that the Venetian blinds were slightly open. Without interrupting the conversation or thinking about it, I reached over to close the blinds. That has become my response when I find myself by an open window. I move away, draw the curtains or close the blinds.
It’s too dangerous for me to be in front of a window. Five shots were fired through the waiting room windows of my office in 1988. But I learned the need to be cautious most intensely in October 1998 as I watched in horror the reports of Dr. Slepian’s assassination in the kitchen of his home in western New York.
Whoever shot Dr. Slepian accomplished his purpose – to strike terror into my heart. It was an act of political terrorism, as have been the assassinations and attempted assassinations of 10 other abortion doctors and several similar attacks, also sometimes fatal, on others who helped abortion doctors or were with them.
It is unusual now for me to lift the coverings of windows in my home so I can see out. I have a nice view from my home of the famous Flatirons mountains that rise above Boulder, but it is a luxury now to enjoy that view.
As my life is now, the windows cannot be uncovered at night. Sometimes I look into the homes of my neighbors and see them moving about and relaxing with their families. My office is a fortress of steel fences and bulletproof windows, and my home has become a hiding place from which I emerge and hope that I will not be the next assassin’s target.
At the very least, we owe our providers a simple "thank you", don't you think?
I propose that we make every day a day to appreciate our abortion providers. When you meet an abortion provider, say thank you for all of the work that they do. You can send them flowers, call the clinic to show your appreciation, or, if possible, donate money. These are all very small sacrifices compared to what they sacrifice for the right to liberty. If you haven't already, you can show your appreciation for abortion providers here.
Without abortion providers, the legality of abortion is meaningless. Thank you, abortion providers, for making liberty possible!
Well shucks my abortion provider didn't tell me his name, look me in the eyes or even acknowledge me.
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't think he deserves a thank you.
Liberty? LOL
It was almost 20 years ago, I don't recall any names. I want to thank all of the people at the clinic and all others who save woman's lives.
ReplyDeleteI have quite a few friends who are post abortive and regret their abortions. One friend was told to shut up by the abortionist. One friend was held down by the abortionist's assistants and forcibly aborted. Another was sexually assaulted by the abortionist. One was told by the abortionist that he had just killed her twins.
ReplyDeleteNo. They won't be thanking abortionists today.
I've had quite a few friends who have had abortions, do not regret their abortions, and who have said that the staff at the clinic that they went to were very kind to them. They are thanking abortion doctors today.
ReplyDeleteDo the true stories I told you move you in any way, PCGal? Do you have any idea of the horror of so many abortions and what abortionists have done to women?
ReplyDeleteYour response speaks volumes about how much you really care about women who regret.
Carla, the one thing that you really don't seem to be grasping here is that no matter how many or how much women regret their abortions, it is not evidence that abortion should become illegal. That's because all women are different, and we're not just going to consider the opinions of the women that agree with you to determine the laws of every woman. The way things are now, women are free to make their own reproductive health decisions. Regret is a possible consequence of making a decision. Women know that risk. We're not stupid :)
ReplyDeleteThe stories you talked about, Carla, are crimes. The women should report those crimes to the police, if only to get justice for themselves. Maybe they should report those crimes to protect other women from the doctors' unethical and illegal practices. Then, those doctors would be imprisoned and/or lose their license to practice. We can all agree that those untrustworthy people who perform abortions should be thrown in prison. Those same doctors probably don't treat the women they just helped give birth any better (you know, because the same doctors who terminate pregnancies also help bring them to term). Problem is, Carla, you want the trustworthy doctors to be imprisoned, if not killed, too (you don't seem too concerned about the true stories PCG talked about that involved murder and terrorism). You want the only people who perform abortions to be the pregnant women themselves, who throw themselves down the stairs or hire someone else to punch them in their bellies or ingest poisonous substances or insert sharp objects into their vaginas to terminate their pregnancies. Your response speaks volumes about how much you really care about women and the doctors who treat them.
Of course they move me. I sympathize with ANYONE that that has happened to, but I refuse to believe that this is the majority. The abortion providers that I've met have been the most compassionate people in the world. I'm going to become an abortion provider, and I'd NEVER do anything like that.
ReplyDelete"Your response speaks volumes about how much you really care about women who regret."
So, acknowledging the fact that there are women who don't regret their abortions means that I don't care about women who do regret their abortions? What??
FEM
ReplyDeleteYou are so full of crap.
Where did I say that I want pregnant women to throw themselves down the stairs, hire someone else etc. etc. etc.??? ANYONE who uses a sharp object on herself to cause self injury is in need of serious psychological help!! Only a mentally ill woman would shove sharp instruments into her body!!
Yes. They are crimes. But let's see...how long does the justice train take to move on ANY allegations of wrongdoing by abortionists??!!! They act like they are above the law and you know it. Eileen Smith's daughter Laura Hope Smith was killed during an abortion. That was 2007. The trial is scheduled for later this year. FINALLY. Oh, that is another woman who won't be thanking an abortionist today btw.
It does not have to be the majority to be wrong. JUST ONE of these instances is too many!! Operation Outcry has the largest body of evidence to date of the harm that abortion causes women. The declarations continue to come in daily. They will be filed as friend of the court briefs when the Supreme Court looks at Roe V Wade again. It is only a matter of time.
http://www.operationoutcry.org
I will be praying for you PCGAL. You are going to be doing Satan's work. God help you when you start your "profession."
I'm not doing Satan's work, I'm doing God's work. Your prayers are misdirected (and you're probably not going to pray for me at all), but thanks anyway.
ReplyDeleteHow so? Please explain to me and to God how you will be doing His work?
ReplyDeleteYou seem really young, I mean you look young in your photo. Have you already started training to be an abortionist?
And YES I will pray for you!!
PCGAL:Have you ever considered that by supporting abortion you are ignoring God? The Fifth Commandment states thou shall not kill. Pro abortion supporters should remember that when they die they face their Maker. It is either Heaven or Hell faces them. Think about how you are going to face God when you die. What does it profit a person to gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his/her soul?
ReplyDeleteThe innocent unborn child has a right to live. Just look at the ultrasound videos on Youtube.
Please thing about the Law of God. Are you happy to see the unborn child torn to pieces in its mothers womb?
See Abortion And The Regrets
ReplyDeleteI'm doing God's work because God would want me to work towards liberty, not against it. God wouldn't want me to force women through pregnancies, that's just cruel.
ReplyDeleteI haven't started "training" to be an abortion provider yet, but my mind is set about my career path.
John Barry- 1) Who says I'm a Christian? 2) God would never want you to force women through pregnancies.
A God of your own making and imagination who will do as you please and wish and not in the way of your cruelties against the unborn.
ReplyDeletePCGal, does your god want you to kill fellow human beings?
ReplyDeleteNo. God also doesn't want me to support the assault of women.
ReplyDeleteYour god considers the uterus to be more important to protect than a human being?
ReplyDeleteThe idea that my children were "assaulting" me when they were in my womb is patently absurd. I'm not sure if you've come to this chapter in your 5th grade science book yet, sweetie, but: a.) when a baby is at a certain stage of development, it's SUPPOSED to be inside its mother, that's just how these things work. It's not like gestation is some out of the ordinary, outrageous thing, and b.) the baby inside its mother is genetically related to its mother. It's a child/parent relationship. My 2 year old hits me all the time because he likes to rough-house and play, but I could hardly use deadly force to stop him and call it self-defense now, could I? Do you think that would stand in court, that he was "assaulting" me? No, and this is mostly due to the fact that he is my son, and not some adult stranger off the street.
ReplyDeleteAlso,
THIS JUST IN:
A parrot is not a human child.
You have A LOT of biology to study if you want to get into medicine some day, chica.
That is all. ^_~
SegaMon- News flash: women are more than just walking uteruses.
ReplyDeleteLinda- There's a huge, huge, difference between pregnancy and forced pregnancy, just like there's a huge difference between sex and forced sex. Saying "my fetus wasn't assaulting my when I was pregnant!" is like someone saying to a rape victim "I had consensual sex, and I didn't feel like I was assaulted! Why are you all bent up about it?"
PS. Yes, I know that my parrot isn't a human. Thank you for being dense on purpose. It's real cute.
Hi Prochoice Gal.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your post. I have watched your back and forth over at Jill Stanek's amusing blog. I am male, however, I too have known women who have chosen abortion and have NOT regretted it. I think it is wonderful that you are training to be an abortionist. As you have seen here and over at the other blog, there are many vocal, misguided people who will fight to stop you. I just wanted you to know that are also many vocal, rational thinking people who will continue to fight for you and all women. Keep up the good work!!!
Jake
But it's not the same thing as rape, for the reasons I mentioned. Not even close, and you're not addressing my points at all. Rape is a violent action against you which causes physical and emotional harm to your person. Pregnancy is not, not even by a long shot. You continually compare a mother's child in utero to a rapist, but he/she has absolutely nothing in common. A better analogy would be...you sitting on a park bench eating some ice cream when your kid runs up to you and takes it and eats it his/herself. Who would authorize the use of deadly force in such a situation? Can you not see that the temporary sharing of one's nutrients and oxygen in no way would ever warrant the needy individual's death, and abortion is a huge inconsistency in the law? You equate pregnancy to sex, but you're ignoring biology. Having a penis in my vagina is not my default position (as a matter of fact, I try to keep it as rare an occurrence as possible...). THE ONLY reason a penis should EVER be in my vagina is because I authorize it, because it is not my natural condition. An attacking rapist is quite capable of simply not sticking his penis in me, he just chooses to do so anyway in violation of my person. My unborn baby's default position is in my uterus. They can't help that, I can't help that fact, either. They aren't making some willful decision to be there, and there's nothing they can do to not need to be there except to grow, which-guess what-they're doing overtime. That baby is doing everything in his/her power to not to need to be there, and they're not there through any willful action of their own. But I'm able to reason this because I'm taking into account the parent/child exceptional legal relationship, which you continuously choose to ignore, over and over again, as you did in my last comment. I hope the "ice cream in the park" analogy I used will help you better understand the situation.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOh, and just an fyi, I wasn't planning on my first pregnancy, and I was actively trying to avoid it. If there was any way other than abortion (because I can comprehend that it is the willful taking of another human life which I will never be a party to under any circumstances and due to that fact will fight actively to keep it from being a legally valid option to ANYONE for anything less than a definitive life-saving reason) to simply not be pregnant, I would've done it. My daughter STILL was not assaulting me when I was pregnant with her. No force was involved.
ReplyDeleteLinda- Once again, you're confusing pregnancy and forced pregnancy. You CHOSE to go through your pregnancy. Key word:CHOICE. It's obviously not forced pregnancy if you CHOSE to go through it.
ReplyDelete"Rape is a violent action against you which causes physical and emotional harm to your person."
Forced pregnancy (again, forced pregnancy, not pregnancy) is a violent act which causes physical and emotional harm to a person.
"A better analogy would be...you sitting on a park bench eating some ice cream when your kid runs up to you and takes it and eats it his/herself."
Thank you for COMPLETELY ERASING the pain and trauma that a forced pregnancy can cause. Have you EVER met someone traumatized by someone stealing their ice cream cone? Have you EVER met someone whose entire life was changed/ruined because of an ice cream cone? Have you EVER met someone who would have killed herself if she didn't get her stolen ice cream cone back? I think not. Thank you for showing the world how much you hate women. I'm so sorry for your daughter.
It doesn't matter if that the fetus doesn't have intent. That doesn't mean that it should be able to violate a person. It doesn't matter if the fetus is a child/baby/zebra/whatever you want to call it. It doesn't have the right to use a person's body against her consent no matter what you call it. I don't care if it's a "parent/child" relationship. It doesn't make a bit of difference.
Yes, the ice cream in the park analogy made me better understand how much you hate women. Thank you for exposing your own BS so I don't have to do it for you.
Anonymous-
Thank you. I love seeing pro-choice comments after seeing all of the misogyny on the anti-choice side. It cheers me up. :)
Holy cow, lots of comments. How'd you get so much attention!? lol.
ReplyDeleteLinda Mandell- I'm SO glad that you had the ability to make a choice in your pregnancy(s?). I'm SO glad that you have never felt emotional or physical abuse or harm during your pregnancies, so that you've never felt it was similar to rape. I'm SO glad that you were not forced to remain pregnant against your will.
I also hope that you extend these same rights and abilities to other women, too.
THANK YOU ABORTION PROVIDERS!
Linda, the legal definition of assault is "the application of unlawful force", with unlawful meaning force not consented to (eg. in sports, athletes consent to some level of assault). If I don't want to be pregnant, then the pregnancy qualifies for the legal definition of assault. At a minimum, giving birth is the application of force, and as my pregnant friend has attested, being pregnant can be incredibly uncomfortable and painful. One can assault another by threatening to apply unlawful force. If a threat qualifies as assault, then an unwanted pregnancy qualifies.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Carla, there are cases of many other kinds of doctors and professionals assaulting their patients/clients. How is a botched abortion any different from other botched procedures? Answer: they aren't. People don't thank those doctors. So don't go about pretending botched abortions are somehow different from any other medical procedure gone bad. It happens. Luckily, abortion is typically an incredibly safe procedure, no matter how many people you claim to know who had problems.
So yes, I thank the abortion doctors who I've never had to meet but would be glad to if I ever became pregnant. I thank Dr. Morgentaler, the hero of Canadian women who continues to fight the New Brunswick government's policy of forcing women to ask permission before their abortion is paid for by government health care.
You forget the cruelty to the child. The defenceless child is torn to pieces. It is tortured to death. Even the wild beasts will fight to protect their young.
ReplyDeleteLife in its complexity could not have developed without the guiding force of a God. Be in no doubt. There is a God.
The Fifth Commandment states thou shall not kill. Abortion is the murder of an innocent child. Have you looked at the ultrasounds on youtube?
A woman can always have child adopted if she does not wish to keep it. Remember abortion is final. The murdered child cannot come back. At least if the child is adopted it is alive. Mental torture suffered by many who have abortions lasts for a lifetime. Now add in the physical damage to the woman's body and increased cancer risks.
John Barry, do you not think the mental torture of a woman forced through 9 months of pregnant hell and excruciating birth lasts a life time? It is so refreshing to hear from a man who can never become pregnant, tell women that forced pregnancy is a cakewalk compared to abortion. Also, I do not believe in "god" so dismissing those arguments is super easy on my part. Lastly, in what abortion procedure is the fetus torn limb from limb?? They don't even HAVE limbs when the majority of abortions are performed. They don't have a nervous system, so they can't feel anything!
ReplyDeleteI know using logic with anti's is an exercise in futility but I persist. I must be a masochist....
See Images of Aborted Children. Please do not go down the road of supporting the slaughter of the innocents.
ReplyDeleteSee 12th week in Womb
ReplyDeleteDo you seriously believe that the earth and solar system and universe came into existence without the guiding force of a God. Do you seriously believe that the human body with all its complexity came about by chance?
John, fetuses are not tortured. They cannot feel when 99% of abortions occur. Pictures make YOU feel bad, but they don't prove anything about what fetuses feel.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the commandment stays we shall not MURDER. God orders people to kill all throughout the Old Testament. You find a place in the Bible which says "abortion is murder" and you might have a point to make- however, I can tell you such a verse doesn't exist.
John, do you seriously believe the universe was put here for us? Do you seriously believe that the Earth is 3000 years old? Do you seriously believe that "god" created the universe in 7 days? Do you seriously believe there is an invisible man in the sky who could stop the pain and suffering of the children in Africa and chooses not to? If there is a god and the latter is the case, I would rather meet the devil because he does not profess to be good. At least said devil is honest about his intentions and his powers.
ReplyDeleteEvolution is NOT chance. In fact it is the furthest thing from chance. If you truly understood evolution, you would get that. Pick up 'The Blind Watchmaker' or even, 'Evolution: The Greatest Show on Earth'. Both will give you a dummy's guide to evolution.
Abortion is a horrible and lucrative business. Look at the images of aborted children here
ReplyDeleteThe unborn are torn to pieces. The pictures show this clearly. Abortion is murder. The Fifth Commandment does not mention driving a car irresponsibly. But if you drive a car irresponsibly and kill someone you have murdered that person and broken the Fifth Commandment. Similarly when you kill the unborn child in the womb you commit murder. The fact that it is legal does not make it moral or right. It is against the Law of God. When we die we face our Maker. If a woman or man wishes to damn his/her soul and end up in hell for all eternity I cannot stop them. I can however encourage them to pray to God for guidance and move away from the path of evil.Why not pray to God?
Why not investigate the likelihood that God exists?
Who created the Big Bang. Did it happen out of nothing? You must be joking. God created the world, solar system and the universe. Read the following Is There A God ?
ReplyDeleteYour arguments aren't changing John and the only one of mine you are addressing isn't even the one based on logic - I made the comment re. god because it allows me to dismiss 90% of your arguments.
ReplyDeleteRe. the Big Bang, just because we don't understand something doesn't make it divine. I have sought out my evidence and found that there is no evidence for god. Thus my conclusion.
Either address my other logical arguments (such as, pictures aren't evidence of pain) or I'm moving on to the next anti.
John, do you understand the difference between using the word "kill" and "murder?" The Bible never once says that abortion is murder, even though abortions happened in Biblical times (and before).
ReplyDeleteThe law of God is clear- abortion isn't murder.
Anyone who can think of their own child as a foreign invader, rapist, or aggressor needs counseling and serious mental help, under ANY circumstances. Anyone under the delusion that an infant who swings their arms around (as such a child is typically wont to do) and hits them in the face is guilty of some sort of assault and is therefore authorized to use deadly force against that baby is seriously troubled and needs help. Such is the case with abortion. Thinking that the unintentional and natural process of childbirth (which, thanks to modern medicine, really isn't such a harrowing experience as all that, any longer. I know, I did it twice) is a baby somehow assaulting his/her mother is ludicrous. These are normal humans in their normal spot engaging in normal activity for their age, just as you and I were at some point. To think of them as some sort of evil entity that exists only to bring harm to the mother is not only absurd, but sick.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it shouldn't matter what "God" does or does not think about abortion. Many pro-lifers are non-religious, even atheists like myself (secularprolife.org is a good resource for finding the pro-life cause from a secular standpoint). Simply the fact that abortion ends the life of the human child of the mother seeking it should be enough for our society to be rid of such a horrific practice, and I'm certain that within my lifetime, we'll come to speak of and think of abortion the same way we think and speak of slavery in this day and age.
Read The Bible and Abortion: The Biblical Basis for a Prolife Position
ReplyDeleteOld Testament law: The Old Testament provides most of the information on God's view of life before birth, since it gives us the law. The law specifically addresses the issue of taking the life of a fetus in the book of Exodus:
ReplyDelete"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life." (Exodus 21:22-23)
Therefore, the law tells us that a man who induces an abortion or miscarriage is to be punished, indicating that God values life before birth. A verse from Hosea3 says that abortion is a punishment for sin, indicating God views it as bad. Likewise, God expressed His disgust for the Ammonites, who "ripped open the pregnant women of Gilead".
(Source:The Bible and Abortion: The Biblical Basis for a Prolife Position
There is nothing natural about forced pregnancy. Nothing at all. It's disgusting and just as horrifying as forced abortion.
ReplyDelete"Also, it shouldn't matter what "God" does or does not think about abortion. Many pro-lifers are non-religious, even atheists like myself"
Yes, atheists can hate women, too!
Please stop equating "anti-abortion" with "misogyny". They're two totally different concepts, and a large part of the reason I'm pro-life is my DAUGHTER. The life of every woman, in the womb and out, should be protected by the law from all stages of development. You screaming constantly about how much pro-lifers hate women just makes you look stupid.
ReplyDelete"There is nothing natural about forced pregnancy."
There is absolutely no force involved whatsoever in maintaining a pregnancy. It is the definition of natural. It's not as though there are random fetal humans running around just looking for unsuspecting wombs to jump inside. They're there inside their mothers already. I think someone needs to "demystify" the process of pregnancy for you. If I were you, I'd try a 6th grade science textbook before attempting to wade into the medical field.
"The life of every woman, in the womb and out, should be protected by the law from all stages of development."
ReplyDeleteOkay, then why don't you actually try to do that? Why don't you stop trying to kill women?
How can I not equate anti-choicism with misogyny? You're advocating for laws that assault and kill women. How can I say that a movement that is for taking away women's liberty isn't anti-woman?
"There is absolutely no force involved whatsoever in maintaining a pregnancy"
How are you NOT forcing a woman through a pregnancy if you give her no other options? If she has no other choice, then of course there's force involved.
Out of curiousity, what exactly are your intentions? Why are you here? You obviously aren't here for discussion.
"Okay, then why don't you actually try to do that? Why don't you stop trying to kill women?"
ReplyDeleteLol, because abortion NEVER kills females. Not EVAR! ALL the aborted humans in the history of the world have been evil, yucky men, amirite? XD
Also: Pregnancy isn't a death sentence. Quite acting like it is. Who here has been pregnant and carried to term (more than once)? Me? And not you? Oh, that's right. I have, and I'm not dead yet. God, I must be some kind of fucking super-human Goddess.
So let's review: Pregnancy = NOT a death sentence, abortion = KILLS roughly 1500 female humans A DAY. So...WHO here is anti-woman again? Oh, right...You.
"Anti-choicism"...Making up new words, ftw. Personally, I adore choices. I love choices. I love choices that a lot of other people wouldn't (notice the purple hair and piercings in my pic). I think women should be free to make ANY choice she wants at all! AS LONG AS NO OTHER HUMAN IS HARMED OR LOSES THEIR LIFE AS THE RESULT OF THAT CHOICE! And once again: Which one of us has been pregnant? Pretty sure it's me. And I'm pretty sure I had just as much liberty pregnant as when I wasn't pregnant. Hell, they even let me waddle my dumb old barefoot and pregnant ass into the ballot box to vote. AIN'T THAT SUMTHIN?! Being pregnant not only ISN'T a death sentence, but it also does not relegate a woman to the realm of 2nd class citizen as your paranoid delusion seems to be telling you (see The Pregnancy Discrimination Act for more info, kiddies!).
ReplyDeleteIf I(?!) give her no other options? KIDDO: I(!) am not doing ANYTHING to a woman who is already pregnant to "force" her to continue being pregnant. I'm sorry, when we were born female, my mom must not've birthed properly or something, because my abortion kit didn't come out with me or something. Sometimes, biology just doesn't present certain things as an "option".
Let's say...I want to fly on giant wings that grow out of my back. I present this "choice" I have made to several surgeons and tell them to get started. They all object on the moral and logical ground that they cannot make this happen (even if they COULD manage to find a way to alter me to give me some kind of clunky wings sprouting out of my back, there is no way possible that they would be functional or in any way aerodynamically sound) no matter how much I want it to be otherwise. Nothing you say about how I am "forcing" a woman to go through a pregnancy has anything to do with the biological fact that pregnancy is the natural result of successful sexual reproduction in humans which begins another human life which is FORCEFULLY assaulted and killed in an abortion. This is in the same way that the doctors in my analogy are not FORCING me to stay on the ground without functional wings. It's just how things are, too bad, so sad. GTF over it.
Why am I here? Probably the same reason you go over to Jill's and start your bullshit there, I suppose. I guess you like to dish it out plenty, but you can't take it? Propaganda, slogans, mantras, and wild accusations really don't stand up very well to a reasoned and logical argument, do they? :(
If I were to get pregnant and be forced to carry to term, I would end my life. Thus, pregnancy for me is a death sentence. My friend has had 2 kids and the first one just about killed her during birth. THOUSANDS of women die during child birth (take a look at 3rd world stats). So stop pretending that birth is a cakewalk. It is FAR more dangerous than abortion. And when it comes to my life and the potential life of something the size of a lentil, I choose me! And YOU can't stop me!
ReplyDeleteI look forward to the day when people like you keep your nose out of the business of other women and let them abort as they please. I look forward to when anti-choice terrorism outside clinics is viewed with the same disdain as forcing blacks to sit at the back of the bus. Thankfully, at least in Canada, my reality is progressing.
Linda, when you choose to be against the legal choice of abortion, you choose to hurt women.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like that, you need to reconsider your stance, not fight against the truth of what you stand for.
Your comments sound like you're trying to justify assault. "Well, it's NATURAL!" Yes, well, it's natural to put a penis in a vagina but that's still rape when you do it without consent. "Pregnancy comes after sex!" Yes, well a broken leg comes after getting into a car accident but no one is going to stop you from fixing your leg and filing charges against the guy who crashed into you.
The fact is, abortion is a part of life. Abortions have been happening since 500 BCE, and that's just how things are. Too bad, so sad, GTO over it, m'kay?
As a side note, in terms of pregnant women losing their liberties, you obviously have not paid attention to the NIH VBAC conference which happened this past week, or the court ordered bedrest and c-section in florida, or the criminalization of miscarriages in Utah.
ReplyDeleteInstead of just pretending to care for women, it would be nice if you actually acknowledged the difficulties pregnant women face every day, especially in their births, and did something to fix it.
Evil, yucky men? I love men. Why do you assume that I think they're "evil" and "yucky"?
ReplyDeleteRape isn't a death sentence either. Does that make it any better? Forced pregnancy can be traumatic for some women. Stop pretending that it can't be. Why would it matter that you've been pregnant? Your experiences don't speak for all women's experiences. I don't have to have been pregnant to understand that forced pregnancy is horrible, just like a person doesn't have to have been raped to understand that rape is horrible.
"I(!) am not doing ANYTHING to a woman who is already pregnant to "force" her to continue being pregnant. "
Once again (you keep on ignoring this), how are you not forcing a woman to stay pregnant if you give her no other options but to stay pregnant? Do you think that there's some other way for her to terminate the pregnancy immediately, or something?
"And I'm pretty sure I had just as much liberty pregnant as when I wasn't pregnant. Hell, they even let me waddle my dumb old barefoot and pregnant ass into the ballot box to vote. AIN'T THAT SUMTHIN?"
I think you're really confused.. or you're just ignoring everything that I say. 1) I assume that you were pregnant after Roe v. Wade, so yes, you had just as much liberty as before you were pregnant 2) Again, you chose to stay pregnant. You're confusing normal pregnancy and forced pregnancy again. 3) Having the right to vote means that you're 100% free? Since when? When did I say anything about the government taking away pregnant women's right to vote? I'm talking about bodily autonomy at the moment.
Your analogy makes no sense. You're acting as if it's impossible to give a woman an abortion, just like it's impossible to give you a pair of wings. That's not true. Abortion is entirely possible, as I'm sure you know. Playing dumb again? ;)
Hey, calm down. It was a simple question. I just wanted to know your motives. I debate with antis for discussion, but you don't seem very interested in having a discussion. That's why I ask.
"Propaganda, slogans, mantras, and wild accusations really don't stand up very well to a reasoned and logical argument, do they?"
I agree. Antis should really stop with the propaganda, slogans, mantras, and wild accusations while pro-choicers are here using resoned and logical arguments.
Not Guilty-
ReplyDelete"If I were to get pregnant and be forced to carry to term, I would end my life. Thus, pregnancy for me is a death sentence."
Yeah, that's how I felt after I got raped. I was young, so my parents had total control over my life, and they wouldn't have let me have an abortion, so I decided that if I got pregnant I'd kill myself. Most antis care about the 14 year old rape victim just as much as they care about the 25 year old woman whose contraception failed (that is, not at all).
NotGuilty: "athletes consent to some level of assault"
ReplyDeleteIf pregnancy is "assault," then 99% of all pregnancies are consented assault as you have defined. Yet you did not go on to describe pregnancy in this way.
You described pregnancy as some hapless individual walking onto a football field while there was a football game going on. If someone chooses to go out onto the middle of a football field during a football game it is very possible for that person to get hurt. That person in the middle of the football field is responsible for himself getting injured because unless he was pushed forcibly onto the field (this would be rape) he knew (and thus consented) that there was a chance that he could get hurt!
In the same way, a woman or man who consents to sexual activity understands full well that such activity can lead to pregnancy. Thus, consent for pregnancy is given during sexual intercourse. Unless the woman has had a hysterectomy, bilateral oopherectomy, has passed menopause, or the man has had an bilateral orchiectomy, the chance of pregnancy is present during sexual (specifically vaginal) intercourse.
PCGal,
"News flash: women are more than just walking uteruses."
Duh. If you would just consider my point then you could have answered my question. Pregnancy is not a death sentence. Unfortunately, the opposite is true regarding elective abortion. Thus the comparison of fetus vs. uterus. The fetus has a much larger stake in this debate than the woman; the fetus' life is at stake whereas the woman's temporary condition is at stake.
The person who walked onto the football field and got hurt wouldn't be denied treatment, though. If we used your logic, s/he should be denied treatment because it was hir fault.
ReplyDeleteAgain, rape isn't a death sentence, either. That doesn't mean that it's not traumatic. Your talking point is absolutely useless. According to your logic, anything short of a "death sentence" is okay.
By the way, a traumatic pregnancy is just as much as a "temporary condition" as rape is. It's not just 9 months. The emotional after effects of a traumatic experience last a LIFE TIME. Your letting your misogyny show by pretending that this pain doesn't exist.
Btw, if you don't think that women are just walking uteruses, then stop describing them that way. You said that pro-choicers think that protecting *uteruses* is more important than protecting fetues. Not true. It's not about uteruses, it's because, unlike antis, we actually care about women.
PCG
ReplyDeleteYou care about one woman -- yourself. The truly frightening part of it all is that you will probably be allowed to perform additional acts of violence against women because those who can see the Truth would never allow you near them or their children. Letting you pet sit for my fish would be stretching it for me.
I would be so interested in hearing you argue every point made in the following article: The Apple Argument Against Abortion by Peter Kreeft
Look it up. Read it. Then. Try. To. Think.
Myself? I'm going to become an abortion provider for myself? I'm going to endure the protesters, death threats, possible murder attempts, and possible terrorist attacks for myself? Because all of that is soo fun, right? Wrong. I'm pro-choice because I love people. Anon, you don't know me, and you obviously don't care about getting to know me. It seems as if your only intention in coming here is to attack pro-choicers. Why? Do you get off to that? Is this the highlight or your day?
ReplyDelete"If we used your logic, s/he should be denied treatment because it was hir fault."
ReplyDelete**BUZZ** Wrong! Just because an idiot walks onto a freeway doesn't mean that we do not provide that person with medical care. However, it does mean that the idiot is responsibility for his wonderfully stupendous act of walking around on a freeway.
"Again, rape isn't a death sentence, either."
Most rapes do not include a significant risk of becoming a homicide. Using a shotgun to blow up a rapist's brain (unless the rapist was using deadly force) is not self-defense. Thus, such action would be considered homicide and punishable in accordance with law. I believe the term is "excessive force."
"The emotional after effects of a traumatic experience last a LIFE TIME."
And the death of an unborn human being lasts forever (which, coincidentally, is much longer than a lifetime). What's your point?
"Your letting your misogyny show by pretending that this pain doesn't exist."
Translation: "WAH! WAH! WAH! I can't argue the merits of the argument so I will attack the messenger!"
Try telling that to my wife! Heck, try telling that to my coworkers (all but 4 are women--I'm a nurse)! ^_^
"You said that pro-choicers think that protecting *uteruses* is more important than protecting fetuses."
Then tell me which is more important.
"...we actually care about women."
Wat a coinkadink! I care about woman two! Who wudda thunk it!? Hardeeharhar! :B
PCG
ReplyDeleteSuggestion: Anger Management 101.
"Just because an idiot walks onto a freeway doesn't mean that we do not provide that person with medical care."
ReplyDeleteExactly. So, just because a woman has sex (although, I wouldn't call her an idiot) she deserves medical care after she has sex.
Wait, so you don't think that women should have the right to defend themselves against rape? What if the only way to end the rape is to shoot the rapist?
"What's your point?"
My point? Pregnancy isn't the temporary inconvenience that you make it out to be. Stop trying to hurt women by trivializing their experiences.
What's more important to me, protecting women or protecting fetuses? Protecting women, obviously.
Oh, you care about women? Maybe you should try refraining from killing them, then. That would be nice.
PCG
ReplyDeleteAre you putting your argument together against Peter Kreeft's logic? Or can you not get through his writings? Or are you so hell-bent that your "logic" is the absolute only way? If someone challenges you and attempts to get you to think past your own nose, it might just throw a clinker into your dreams of becoming the most famous abortionist of all times.
"Moral issues are always terribly complex -- for someone without principles." Chesterton
I haven't read the article that you recommended, nor do I plan on doing so any time soon. I've had my fair share of misogyny for a while. Who says I want to become the most famous abortion provider of all time? Or are you just making stuff up again?
ReplyDeleteMy point proven. "Moral issues are always terribly complex -- for someone without principles." Chesterton
ReplyDeleteP.S. I know all about misogyny. I've been a woman all my life. I don't the oppression of my gender as an excuse to support the killing of humans.
first of all, abortion mortality stats are bullshit. The CDC lumps those in with maternal death rates. Also, third world countries? You want to start talking about third world countries now? What does the quality of health care in third world countries have to do with the price of tea in China?
ReplyDeleteAlso, this just struck me as...sociopathic to the extreme:
"And when it comes to my life and the potential life of something the size of a lentil, I choose me!"
Nevermind that we're not talking about some random speck of nondescript material somewhere...This is ANOTHER HUMAN-SPECIFICALLY YOUR CHILD. I don't care WHAT form I was in, I would want others to consider my safety and well-being and protect and care for me...ESPECIALLY my own mother, and I'd do the same for every other human in that condition, and especially my children! I can't even fathom the mindset which would ever allow someone to prioritize maintaining their lifestyle over the very lives of their own offspring. That's some scary stuff.
And..."...the size of a lentil..." Yeah, because how big and old my kids are totally affects the quality of care and consideration I give them, for sure. My son's only about the size of a medium-small dog, whereas my daughter's coming up on the size of a large breed dog or a small Shetland pony, AND I've had her way longer, so I'll make sure she gets waaaay more love and consideration than my much smaller son. He's so small, he doesn't even deserve it, rite? God, sick minds...
"...she deserves medical care after she has sex."
ReplyDeleteOf course she does. However, an elective abortion, by the nature of it's very name, is an elective procedure. This is very much different than a D&C done following miscarriage. It is also very different than an induced labor following fetal demise (stillbirth). Thus, an elective abortion is not "medical care." An elective abortion never save a life by it's very definition (elective) and thus does not equate with someone who gets whacked by a car walking on the freeway or a truly strange person walking onto a football field during a life football game. The comparison is not equal. Your logic would mean that an elective c-section saves more lives than an emergency c-section.
"...trivializing their experiences."
Certain death (elective abortion) versus extremely improbable death with almost all body systems returning to normal following natural termination of pregnancy (live birth). I'm not trivializing anything; I'm defining them.
I have personally cared for women during labor and delivery. I have also floated as a nurse to a postpartum floor to care for those patients as well. I have also helped care for neonates in a NICU while in nursing school. Yea, I know... me a dude with dick and cannot possibly no nothing about ze whorrors of labre and kildbirf!!!!11!!1!!!111!!
I asked you if you considered a uterus more important than a fetus. I'm waiting for an answer.
"Oh, you care about women? Maybe you should try refraining from killing them, then."
Are you accusing me of raping and killing women? Go ahead and report it to the authorities then. *rolls eyes* You're again attacking me personally since you cannot intelligently respond to my arguments.
Have a good night, PCGal.
Most rapes do not include a significant risk of becoming a homicide. Using a shotgun to blow up a rapist's brain (unless the rapist was using deadly force) is not self-defense. Thus, such action would be considered homicide and punishable in accordance with law. I believe the term is "excessive force."
ReplyDeleteBUZZ! 24 of the United States of America allow people to use deadly force to protect themselves against an intruder without a duty to retreat. Their lives don't have to be threatened. In fact, the law assumes that any person whose property is trespassed on were in immediate danger of losing their lives or becoming injured, giving them license to shoot them dead. In South Dakota, where the people voted twice to overturn abortion bans, you can kill someone if they're in the process of damaging your property. That's right. The same governor who signed legislation to force pregnancy on women also signed legislation to allow anyone to kill anyone else to protect the condition of their property, making property > women in South Dakota.
And BUZZ again, for claiming that most rapes don't involve a risk to women's lives. There's no way of measuring this, since it's completely subjective. Many women who are murdered are raped first (as a side note, the 2nd greatest cause of death among pregnant women is murder, so many women who are murdered are impregnated first, too. What do pro-lifers do for them. Oh, right. Jack shit. The number one cause of death among pregnant women are all natural causes combined. You don't do shit for them either). I doubt a woman who's being raped is as assured as you are that she's gonna be just fine. They're likely afraid that the last thing they'll ever experience is a brutal rape.
Thank you SegaMon for providing life-affirming care for women. It is obvious that PCGal cannot see how she is becoming one of the poster girls for the R to L movement. I wouldn't let PCGal deliver my mail to say anything of my children. Pro-life nurses (and doctors) continue to speak out! Pro-life families, choose only pro-life nurses and doctors for your health care. YES WE CAN!!
ReplyDeleteIf someone gets hit by a car on the freeway...they're probably going to die and at the very least, need to be checked out and given medical attention by a doctor.
ReplyDeleteHowever...
People have sex all of the time and practically none of those individuals require an abortion to live afterward. Even if they DID require an abortion to save their life (a ectopic pregnancy and not much else beyond that...) you'd find that you could probably count the number of pro-lifers opposed to such action on one hand. Pregnancy is not the kind of torture you imagine it to be, and anyone who says "I'd KILL MYSELF IF I EVER GOT PREGNANT!!!111" is mentally ill.
Hi FEMily,
ReplyDeleteI've been raped twice in my life. It doesn't define or own me. I remain committed to doing what I can to protect people from rape as well as innocent unborn humans from murder. I am stronger than rape. But I am Way Stronger than abortion.
It is also very different than an induced labor following fetal demise (stillbirth)
ReplyDeleteWrong again. The Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003/2006 doesn't make this distinction. Doctors could be put in prison for inducing labor of a woman who's pregnant in her third trimester with a dead fetus, if the doctor finds out that the woman needs a partial birth abortion to get the fetus out. Since it's the procedure that's illegal and not when and why the procedure is carried out, doctors are put in an extremely precarious position between performing an illegal abortion and preventing the suffering of a pregnant woman. There's no health exception to perform this procedure either, whether it's the health of the pregnant woman or the health of the fetus. Of course, this legislation is a victory for pro-lifers.
I've been raped twice in my life. It doesn't define or own me. I remain committed to doing what I can to protect people from rape as well as innocent unborn humans from murder. I am stronger than rape. But I am Way Stronger than abortion.
ReplyDeleteThat's wonderful for you that you were able to move on with your life. However, I'm confused as to what this has to do with anything I said, or your desire to criminalize abortion. Making abortion illegal, which basically relegates women's bodies as property of the government and not as their own possessions, isn't going to prevent rape or murder of women. Not only does this violate international human rights statutes, it dehumanizes us, making us more likely to be used like property. After all, if I can't even be trusted to control how many kids I have without the government interfering, why should I be trusted to control any other aspect of my life? But if you could name a single right that women had before abortion was legal, or a single right that women in any country where abortion is illegal have, that women in countries where abortion is legal don't have, please let me know. Because right now, I'm under the impression that women with more bodily autonomy and reproductive freedom have other important rights, like the right to vote, go to school, earn their own money, use the criminal justice system when they're raped and abused, marry who they want (if they want), and live their own lives.
Linda-
ReplyDeleteSo what if a person gets hit by a car and doesn't have a risk of dying? You think they should be denied medical care?
Just because it wasn't torture for you doesn't mean that it's a walk in the park for everyone else. What you're saying now is that the only person whose experience matters is yours. You're saying "I didn't want to kill myself and pregnancy was a cakewalk for me, so everyone who thinks otherwise is MENTALLY ILL".
Segmon-
Abortions are medical care. Just because you don't like the procedure doesn't mean that it's not medical care. Pregnancy is a condition that effects the health of the woman and can even result in death. Terminating the pregnancy is caring for the woman's health.
You ARE trivializing women's experiences. You (along with Linda) are pretending that trauma can never occur from pregnancy and birth, and that it's just a walk in the park for every woman who gets pregnant. That, Segmon, is idiotic and misogynistic.
"I asked you if you considered a uterus more important than a fetus. I'm waiting for an answer."
ONCE AGAIN, women are not walking uteruses. We're protecting WOMEN, not uteruses. Your question is random and pointless.
You are killing women. You support laws that you know kill women. You obviously don't care about women's lives, let alone their bodily autonomy.
Are you going to answer my question? Do you think that rape victims don't have the right to defend themselves?
"After all, if I can't even be trusted to control how many kids I have without the government interfering, why should I be trusted to control any other aspect of my life?"
ReplyDeleteWait...When did we start a conversation about how we want to totally remove contraceptive options and forcefully inseminate women? Oh, that's right-WE DIDN'T. I don't care how many kids you decide you want and take actions to prevent. But you are totally ignoring the fact that once a woman is pregnant, the life cycle of that child has already begun-she already HAS that kid-he/she just isn't born yet. I decided I wanted 2 kids maximum and no more. I have a tubal ligation. Problem solved. You start from a faulty notion that just because pro-lifers oppose abortion, we want to somehow FORCE women to have umpteen children, which simply is not true. We just want women not to kill the children they already have and be able to get away with it because the magical walls of the uterus make it somehow a-ok.
"...Because right now, I'm under the impression that women with more bodily autonomy and reproductive freedom have other important rights, like the right to vote, go to school, earn their own money, use the criminal justice system when they're raped and abused, marry who they want (if they want), and live their own lives."
Wow...I thought I always knew so much about history, and then I talked to a pro-choicer. Because apparently, pre-Roe, women couldn't vote (LOL, WUT? ProChoiceGirl said, "3) Having the right to vote means that you're 100% free? Since when? When did I say anything about the government taking away pregnant women's right to vote?" I guess the right to vote is only super-important when YOU guys talk about it, and means nothing when I mention it. Sowwy! Mai bad. ^_^), or go to school, or earn their own money, or use the criminal justice system, marry who they want, or live their own lives.
Wait...You mean women COULD do all of that before Roe, would be able to still after it's overturned, and the women who originally fought for us to have all of those rights in the first place didn't even support legal abortion? Drats, Linda's ability to read documented history about the women's rights movement foils pro-choicers and their made-up bullshit YET AGAIN!
Oh, and ProChoiceGal, I'm sorry if I didn't realize that repeatedly threatening to kill one's self is a sign of being in perfect mental health and stuff. lol.
"So what if a person gets hit by a car and doesn't have a risk of dying? You think they should be denied medical care?"
ReplyDeleteNo, but I don't think they should be getting a nose job if the only thing that happened is their foot was run over and call that nose job "medically necessary due to being run over by a car". That's the same relationship abortion has to the care of someone post-coitus in regards to treating a pregnancy.
Calling the movement "pro-choice" is like calling a "strip joint" a "gentlemen's club."
ReplyDeleteIt is SOOO hard to wake up those who are so very heavily sedated. . . . .
We are praying for you out here but you need to look past your own face to see the signs . . . .
Oh, and this from earlier:
ReplyDelete"Your analogy makes no sense. You're acting as if it's impossible to give a woman an abortion, just like it's impossible to give you a pair of wings. That's not true. Abortion is entirely possible, as I'm sure you know. Playing dumb again? ;)"
No, you're just too dense to get my point, which is, it is impossible to commit an elective abortion which doesn't put a permanent end to another human's life cycle, which is what we like to call "killing" him/her. You don't get it. If it was JUST a woman saying "I don't want to be pregnant anymore, that's why I want my abortion, and that alone." and there was no other human involved in the process, pro-lifers wouldn't give a shit, I assure you. Failing to recognize and consider the OTHER life involved which is ended by the abortion is the first and most profound (hell, sometimes the only) flaw in pro-choicer's attempts to both counter pro-life arguments and understand the pro-life philosophy.
Linda, are you aware that the failure rate of a tubal ligation is 1 in 200? That is a higher failure rate than most other birth controls. And the problem is, you don't KNOW it's failed until you are pregnant. With an IUD, if it falls out, you can be reasonably assured it has failed. With the pill, if you miss one, you are aware. That isn't to say that if you take your pill on time everyday it can't fail, but if I read between the lines, you seem to be saying that a tubal ligation is perfect.
ReplyDeleteSecond, do you have ANY idea how hard it is for a woman to convince a doctor to tie her tubes, especially if she doesn't have children? Women who have to BEG their doctors for a tubal are NOT in control of their reproductive health. I decided against one after meeting with an OB-GYN because of the failure rate and my inability to know if it's failed. But I was SHOCKED when my family doctor referred me with no fight. It is DISGUSTING that I felt that if I went to my doctor, she might just say no. How many women ARE refused? Until women can walk in, ask for a tubal like they ask for a pap, women are denied reproductive control. On that note, you can rest assured I have no intention of having children, which is actually quite unfortunate for the gene pool because I have excellent genes. But that also means, if I get pregnant, I will end it and I'll feel as guilty about it as I do when I eat a slab of chocolate cake!
Tubal ligation isn't perfect, it's close (the failure rate is .1%), but we were just talking about my female form of birth control. If you want to count my husband's vasectomy also, feel free. (I think pharmaceutical companies who have a vested interest in talking women into buying their products month after month, year after year have something to do with a lot of misinformation about tubal ligations, but that's another topic all together...) It's called "responsibility". You guys should try some. Did everyone's favorite heroine Angie Jackson supposedly have an IUD? THAT worked really great, huh...
ReplyDeleteNot that I would kill any resulting kids my husband and I were to have regardless of whether or not I want to ever be pregnant again-we wouldn't. Every single time I engage in sexual activity, I take into consideration that .1%. Every time. I'm not going to punish my child with death for being really really lucky (or me being really really unfortunate, if you want to look at it that way).
If you guys want to protest something that actually has to do with reproductive choice and freedom-being routinely denied tubal ligation-and NOT free reign to end your childrens' lives in utero as you see fit, I'll march right along with ya, buddies.
I'm ambivalent about your decision not to have children. Good for you? *golfclap* But boy, you sure think a lot of yourself, don'tcha? And this is what I don't understand, if you KNOW you'll have an abortion if you get pregnant, why not do something like get your tubes tied AND get an IUD? Why even run the remote risk of bringing another human life into the world just to end it? If I was aware that I was making a conscious decision to end another human's life should it come to that when choosing to engage in sexual activity, I would go well, well, VERY WELL out of my way to avoid the possibility as much as possible.
"I'll feel as guilty about it as I do when I eat a slab of chocolate cake!"
Thank you for showcasing your psychopathy (and by proxy showing the cornerstone of the entire pro-choice movement) and lack of empathy for other human lives, particularly those of your own children.
"Wait...You mean women COULD do all of that before Roe, would be able to still after it's overturned"
ReplyDeleteSo? Once again, those rights to not equal complete liberty. I'm not satisfied if women only have *some* of their rights. They need ALL of them.
"Oh, and ProChoiceGal, I'm sorry if I didn't realize that repeatedly threatening to kill one's self is a sign of being in perfect mental health and stuff. lol."
Why are you so amazed that a lot of women will threaten/attempt/commit suicide when being forced through traumatizing pregnancies? Do you expect them to completely ignore their trauma? You intentionally try to force them through hell, and then when they feel traumatized you're like "Huh? I wonder what happened to her?". Have you ever experienced any traumatic event? You act like you haven't. You can be in perfect mental health before the event, and still be in pain when it happens! Surprise, surprise, people have emotions!
Re: Tubal ligation
ReplyDeleteThe sad truth is that a lot of women are denied tubal ligations. I have a lot of childfree friends and have met a lot of childfree people, and a lot of them can not find someone to perform a tubal ligation because they're "too young" or they "don't have enough kids" yet. Also, as with any form of birth control, it's not 100% effective
Well Linda, I could certainly get a tubal, and an IUD, and take birth control, and ask men I'm not married to to get a vasectomy, and wear a condomn.... But that seems a little ridiculous. I am responsible, but guess what, mistakes happen. And I doubt that you think your kids should have to live forever with mistakes they make (even if I adopted the child out, they may try to contact me in the future, not to mention the toll that pregnancy and birth takes on a woman's body). Even criminals don't have to live with their mistakes forever (at least in Canada). But if I get pregnant, well tough for me eh? Not even to mention that a tubal is riskier than an abortion since you are under general anesthesia, which can kill you.
ReplyDeleteIn Canada, we don't have pharma lobbies, so doctors don't try and "push" the product or lie about stats. 1 in 200 were not odds I could live with. I also didn't want to go under anesthesia for the 5th time in a year.
And yes, I think I am great. I'm in law school, so obviously very intelligent, and there is no history of cancer, diabetes or any other genetic diseases on either side of my family. Genetically, I am a great candidate for procreating.
I will continue to be responsible, but I will not live with a mistake for the rest of my life because you think I should be denied a choice.
I'd also like to point out that I have never been diagnosed with a mental disorder and since I did my undergrad in psych, and my 2 best friends are clinical psych students, I can assure you I'm perfectly normal mentally. That comment was truly for your benefit.
There is a HUGE difference between intelligent and wise. I'm an old lady and I've met some damn dumb lawyers and over half of them are probably socialpaths. And we all know that psych students, teachers and counselors are the most mentally stable people around. LOL. I could find someone to diagnose you with a mental disorder tomorrow. Stop lying to yourself.
ReplyDeleteOh Yeah, Ms. Intelligent Undergrad Psych Student: The fact that you use "Not Guilty" speaks VOLUMES about your character flaws. What are they teaching you in psych class? You obviously haven't gotten to the part where you learn to hide your own mental health disorders.
ReplyDeleteI LOVE the anti-choice dolts that flog the inane "abortion is elective" garbage. This is ALWAYS tied to the even more anti-logical "no public funding for abortion" nonsense.
ReplyDeleteChildbirth is just as "elective" as abortion. And, SURPRISE, it costs MORE in doctor's visits, prenatal care and delivery, for both the insured and uninsured alike. And, for the latter, it costs the government MORE and, thus, taxpayers MORE. This says nothing about the cost of insuring and caring for that child after it's born, more often than not, into poverty. But we know, of course, that once born, the infant is quickly abandoned by the anti-choice zealots that insisted on the sanctity of its life in the first place. Lovely!
These nutjobs would prefer a scenario where they would pay thousands in tax dollars per forced pregnancy versus a few hundred to allow a woman the freedom to choose abortion. AND, anti-choicers manage the buffoonish audacity to turn around and screech just as loudly against public funding for health care effectively sanctioning the killing of thousands of women and children each year from lack of access to free or affordable health care. Obviously, those "lives" are no longer sanctified.
It's disgusting!
We all know who the psychopath is. It's the anti-choice, low-information wingnut whackadoodle.
ProLifers - Click on 60th Street to see where he/she makes their $$. Surprise, Surprise.
ReplyDelete60th Street - Covering up the rape of young girls is the ultimate in psychopathic behavior. And didn't your mom ever teach you not to call names? It sure makes me want to send the young people I know to your mill for advice.
ProLifers - Check out who 60th Street represents. Surprise Surprise
ReplyDelete60th Street - Covering up the rape of girls is the ultimate in psychopathic behavior. Did your mom ever teach you that name calling is not nice? Does your boss know you talk like this while advertising The Mill? Or are you The Boss?
This mother of two is COMPLETELY and unapologetically PRO CHOICE!
ReplyDeleteWow...I thought I always knew so much about history, and then I talked to a pro-choicer. Because apparently, pre-Roe, women couldn't vote (LOL, WUT? ProChoiceGirl said, "3) Having the right to vote means that you're 100% free? Since when? When did I say anything about the government taking away pregnant women's right to vote?" I guess the right to vote is only super-important when YOU guys talk about it, and means nothing when I mention it. Sowwy! Mai bad. ^_^), or go to school, or earn their own money, or use the criminal justice system, marry who they want, or live their own lives.
ReplyDeleteWait...You mean women COULD do all of that before Roe, would be able to still after it's overturned, and the women who originally fought for us to have all of those rights in the first place didn't even support legal abortion? Drats, Linda's ability to read documented history about the women's rights movement foils pro-choicers and their made-up bullshit YET AGAIN!
Don't get so excited there. What you said would only be true if an executive order were signed or legislation were passed through Congress to make abortion legal. But it wasn't. Abortion became legal in the United States in 1973 through a Supreme Court decision. The Supreme Court's only job is to answer the question, Is this law constitutional or unconstitutional? The Supreme Court ruled that total bans on abortion were unconstitutional based on the 14th Amendment. That amendment was passed in 1868. Therefore, laws banning abortion were unconstitutional, should have never been passed, and should have never been enforced since the ratification of the 14th Amendment. Additionally, women had the right to abortion before they had the right to vote, as per the 19th Amendment ratified in 1920.
Don't get so excited there, Femily. Do you know the history of the laws regarding slavery and the holocaust? Just because atrocities have been legalalized in history doesn't make them morally right. Truth is never dependent on the consensus of those in positions of authority or the majority's public opinion. Keep swimming in De Nile.
ReplyDeleteDear Anonymous Coward,
ReplyDeleteI give up! You've discovered my supersecretsquirrel plot to enter a website when prompted. I chose Planned Parenthood, genius! Wanna guess why!?
Lol! Not that actually working there would inhibit me from unloading on anti-choice whackadoodles like yerself at will as I currently do as an unaffiliated full-throated PP supporter.
Feel free to associate me with them, though, if it fills and warms your tiny black heart with hate. I'll try not to wear that distinction too proudly, lest I injure your delicate sensibilities.
Also, for your files, I do support the absolute right of any pregnant woman, or minor, to privacy regarding their choice to have an abortion. So, plz spare regaling me with your uninspired anti-choice campfire tales of your anti-choice "undercover" guerilla follies and pathetic unAmerican anti-choice attempts to rob women of their freedom.
(I ain't buyin' what ur sellin')
There's another supersecretsquirrel link in there for you, too, sherlock! Get your click on! :)
Wow.
ReplyDeleteI guess your mom didn't teach you how to play nice. I love you anyway.
Also, Femily, my ability to read encompasses not only historical accounts, but actual quotes from the deciding justices of the SCOTUS regarding the Roe decision. Blackmun stated explicitly that were the humanity of the unborn to be considered in the case, the argument for legal abortion would fall through. The unborn were not even considered at all in the final decision because the justices stated that medical technology had not progressed far enough for them to be given a voice at the trial! They weren't considered AT ALL! I think we've come a hell of a long way since the 1970's, baby, and next time this goes to court-because it will-the voice for gestating humans will be heard loud and clear.
ReplyDeleteFoiled again!
RE: Even the wild beasts will fight to protect their young.
ReplyDeleteWild beasts will sometimes also abandon their young if their lives are in danger. Wild beasts (or even domestic dogs) will eat their weakest offspring.
RE: A woman can always have child adopted if she does not wish to keep it.
Of course she can, she can add to the ever increasing number of children waiting to be adopted. Why do the pro-birthers always push this option when they will not even push ADOPTION over birth. Many have multiple children of their own and push the need for children to adopt. Who is going to adopt these children-especially as they're growing older.
RE: It is against the Law of God.
THAT should not even be brought up at all. Period. Not everyone believes in god, not everyone who believes in god believes abortion is morally wrong. If you believe in god fine but do not expect this to in any way affect another person who does not share your belief.
RE:Anyone who can think of their own child as a foreign invader, rapist, or aggressor needs counseling and serious mental help, under ANY circumstances.
Interestingly the argument is used that the fetus is a separate unique human being, yet here you say they should not be viewed as a foreign invader. What then IS a foreign invader other than something growing inside of you (invading you) and it is not entirely of your body? Cancer is a mutation of your cells and is sometimes called a foreign invader as it grows. A fetus is a combination of cells from the host and another person so it is entirely different from the host correct.
A fetus is not an aggressor because it has no say-the aggressors are those who wish to impose their views on other women.
RE: "I(!) am not doing ANYTHING to a woman who is already pregnant to "force" her to continue being pregnant. "
If a woman is denied the option to terminate a pregnancy she is being forced. If you vote to pass laws that would deny her the option to choose you ARE doing something to force her.
RE: Thus, consent for pregnancy is given during sexual intercourse.
If this were true abortion would not be an issue. This is as rational as saying you let your small child wear a bikini in a neighborhood where there is the potential for a sex offender to live so you have given consent for the child to be molested. Not every act of intercourse results in pregnancy, not every venture outside results in a rape.
RE: I can't even fathom the mindset which would ever allow someone to prioritize maintaining their lifestyle over the very lives of their own offspring.
The mindset that would allow that thinking is also the logic that can result in a very devoted parent to the children they have. Not all women have an instant maternal bond the moment they discover they are pregnant. Some don't develop the bond until AFTER the birth and they've had time to SEE, TOUCH, and BOND with their offspring.
RE: I asked you if you considered a uterus more important than a fetus. I'm waiting for an answer.
The uterus as the woman vs the fetus. The woman. The woman who matters, who has family, friends, memories, and an impact on the world. A fetus that can be replaced has less value. The loss of the woman would be felt more greatly than the loss of a fetus.
RE: if you KNOW you'll have an abortion if you get pregnant, why not do something like get your tubes tied AND get an IUD?
There isn't always the financial ability TO have these things taken care of. We could all just stop having sex but..how realistic is that?
RE: Thank you for showcasing your psychopathy (and by proxy showing the cornerstone of the entire pro-choice movement) and lack of empathy for other human lives, particularly those of your own children.
Again it seems there is an inability to understand the fact that not every woman has an instant ON switch to their maternal nature. Dying for the children you have-the ones you can see and touch vs a genetically similar parasite...
Rationalize your abortion all you want. You still participated in the murder of an innocent human.
ReplyDeleteYou paid a complete stranger alot of money to feign compassion for you and suck and cut a Child apart, not a stranger's child but Your Child, someone who would have Truly loved You -- not feined compassion. Any way you cut it (pun intended), this is the true showcase of psychopathy.
Having your little responses prepared in an attempt to argue against true humanitarian thinking only helps strenthen your denial, perpetuates your lack of self-control and allows you to sleep better.
People who are charged with child molestations come up with their own lists of why what they did was OK. I don't listen to their pathetic attempts to rationalize their evils either.
Mother Theresa said, "If abortion is not wrong, nothing is wrong." She was a huge humanitarian of our time and she was a woman! The hard of heart dismiss the prophets.
Wake from your slumber. Your last sentence says it all. Society called the Jews genetic parasites at one point . . .
Praxedes said:
ReplyDeleteWolves prey on the young, the sick, the vulnerable and the elderly. Wolves do not have free will. I do.
It appears you missed the word similar between genetic and parasite. There is a large difference between calling a Jewish person a genetic parasite and calling a fetus genetically similar to its host/mother a parasite.
ReplyDeletePrepared responses are the easiest way to respond to specific points in a neatly ordered way. Maybe you'd prefer a jumbled rambling post? The great thing about choice is that you don't have to listen to the arguments, just as others don't have to listen to yours.
Mother Theresa did a lot of good in her life, she had her own beliefs. That does not mean anyone else needs to live by it or see her as anything more than a woman who tried to help people. She was not perfect.
Rationalize your abortion? Do you believe my prepared responses indicates I've had an abortion? I have not. I have no reason to deny anything to help me sleep. Even if I had what makes you think I would have trouble sleeping? Not everyone has regrets. I did wake from my slumber-had a great night in a comfy bed thanks.
Do you truly believe children love you just because they're yours? How many children or parents hate each other and do not speak. Just because someone is related to you-cousin, child, parent, sibling does not in any sense mean you will care about them. That is a can of worms that is too large to open and get off topic here.
THIS is not true humanitarian thinking. Help the children who need you-the ones who were born not wanted and are being abused. The ones who were born not wanted and are being passed from foster home to foster home. The children starving, or the ones who are being drugged so the parent doesn't have to deal with them. Those children are alive, they are individuals, they are the ones who need you. If the prolife would put as much effort into the born children the world would be better.
Wolves don't have free will? Really?
Anonymous- I have not had an abortion.
ReplyDeleteWolves don't have free will. Really.
ReplyDelete"Help the children who need you-the ones who were born not wanted and are being abused. The ones who were born not wanted and are being passed from foster home to foster home. The children starving, or the ones who are being drugged so the parent doesn't have to deal with them. Those children are alive, they are individuals, they are the ones who need you. If the prolife would put as much effort into the born children the world would be better."
ReplyDeletePraxedes writes:
Why don't you do a study on what Pro-Lifers do with their lives? I am 100% Pro-Life but you don't even know what I do when I'm being paid nor what I do in my personal life but you assume. . . . (hint, hint - what I do has alot to do with abused children).
Were you around when abortion became legalized? The pro-aborts MAIN matra at that time was "Every Child Wanted". They proclaimed that abortion would Stop Child Abuse. Child abuse has exponentially increased since abortion was legalized. Rape of children has also greatly increased. There are reasons for this that can be researched and linked to legalized abortion if you are willing to think Outside Your Little Box and do your homework. Abortion is not the solution. It is the problem.
Before Roe V. Wade, pro-aborts and the media claimed thousands upon thousands of women were illegally aborting in our country each year. These figures have been debunked. It was actually around 200-300 per year (yes I agee this is sad and those women needed and deserved professional help). Young people are now cutting and playing the choking game. Should we legalize this so they can do it in safer environments and so others can make large amounts of money off of it? How many women are aborting each year now in comparison? Have you ever researched the main characters in Roe v. Wade and where they are now? We have not come along way, Baby. We have gone backwards.
Reality Check.
P.S. You are corrent that just because someone is related to you doesn't mean you automatically care about them. I use my free will quite often with family and non-family members alike. I am using my FREE WILL to consciencelessly make the choice to care about you even though I totally disagree with your views on humanitarian issues. Peace
"I can't imagine how painful it would be to be forced through a pregnancy. I'd probably rather kill myself, too." Quote by a mentally-unstable future abortionist. Wow. Satan does exist.
ReplyDeleteI want to take the opportunity to thank all the truly STRONG women who gave of themselves by giving up their children for adoption. We are so glad you didn't kill yourselves and children instead. You've made the world a better place because of your sacrifices.
"That's good to hear, hope you don't mind me smacking the antis around a little on your site..thwap me if I get outta hand :)"
ReplyDeleteWhat a compassionate young woman you are!!
Wow, where to start...
ReplyDeleteWell 'Not Guilty' is a play on a sign at the clinic I volunteer at. The women are doing nothing wrong, thus they are 'not guilty' of anything. Also, in law, one can plead 'not guilty'. It has nothing to do with my mental status.
Of course you could find "somebody" to declare that I have a mental disorder. There is always "somebody" who will say such things for money. As well, all people have psychological "tendencies". For example, I have a tendency towards obsessions and compulsions, which presents itself as Type A personality traits. It does not mean I have OCD (which, by definition requires that the obsessions and compulsion negatively affect your life). You Anonymous, seem to have tendencies towards grandiose thoughts and behaviours, as is evidenced by your rantings.
Hm, next we can get to "smart vs. wise". Are you saying only "wise" people should procreate? My intelligence argument was not put forth simply for its own sake, but to illustrate that my DNA would contribute greatly to the gene pool of the human race. Good job trying to turn that around but you fail.
Here is the bottom line. My "pro-choice" position means I give women the RIGHT to make decisions relating to their own bodies without having to ask permission or justify to me or anybody else. Your "anti-choice" position, on the other hand, requires that women beg, justify and/or ask permission to do something with their own body that has ZERO (read that again Z-E-R-O) relevance to YOU. Since what they do does NOT IMPACT YOUR LIFE, you need to keep your nose out of it. Don't go giving ridiculous arguments that it affects you in some indirect way. It affects you as much as a families' decision to take a child off life support affects you. Which is to say, it doesn't. You do not have some inherent right to poke your nose where it doesn't belong.
"There is always "somebody" who will say such things for money."
ReplyDeleteAgree. There is also always "somebody" who is willing to kill those they admit are living humans for money (big money by the way). Yes, now most pro-aborts will admit life begins at conception (including your Abortion Buddy PCGal), it's just that their life is more important and now pro-aborts are forced to bring in the ol' Sacred Womb argument.
With your logic, I shouldn't be concerned about churches covering up for child molesters because it doesn't relate to me. I also shouldn't be concerned about Planned Parenthood covering up for adult men who impregnate teenagers.
Global humanity issues are a concern to all us us. If you choose not to poke your nose into humanity issues that is your Choice. However, I will remain concerned and poke away.
I don't judge you for keeping your head buried in the sand, so I'm not understanding your bringing my nose into your fragile attempts at defending the murdering of innocents.
Peace.
Praxedes says:
ReplyDelete"My intelligence argument was not put forth simply for its own sake, but to illustrate that my DNA would contribute greatly to the gene pool of the human race."
And you go on to say "You Anonymous, seem to have tendencies towards grandiose thoughts and behaviours."
You can't be serious, can you? I don't say this much buy Holy Crap!!
"24 of the United States of America allow people to use deadly force to protect themselves against an intruder without a duty to retreat."
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that you are correct. However, I personally disagree with that. I am not in favor of these laws that you are citing.
In California: "Depending on the situation, it is very likely that deadly force will be necessary to defend yourself under these circumstances and will be excused when it is." Notice the phrase "depending on the situation..." If deadly force is required to protect yourself, then one may be able to convince the court of that. (( shouselaw.com/self-defense.html ))
As I have been looking up information regarding this issue, I need to correct myself and to possibly classify two forms of rape.
Forceful rape holds the high probability that the rapist will use deadly force to kill his victim. Thus, you are right in saying that there are many rape cases in which deadly force could be necessary and defensible in court. (( corneredcat.com/Legal/rape.aspx/ )) I understand this. It makes sense.
In the case of "date rape" which was accomplished without violence could also require lethal force to defend from? I don't believe so. If a mere shove in the chest to a rapist makes that person stop and retreat then only that amount of force would be justified. In this case, bringing out a 35mm and shooting the guy between the eyes would not be an appropriate and defensible action.
I believe that the rule of thumb is that if a person intends and is imminently going to cause severe bodily harm (especially including forceful rape) that lethal force is justifiable in court. I agree with this.
However, does that apply against an unborn human being inside the womb?
Think of it this way: do I have the right to kill someone who looks at me funny because I believe that this particular person may hurt me? Even though the possibility is there, of course not. Thus, does anyone have the right to destroy an unborn child because of small unintended consequence of major bodily harm and highly probable minor harm? No! The guy looking at me weird caused me minor harm! He made me go insane! He's gotta be killed! ...doesn't work that way...
Also, is date rape or forceful rape a naturally occurring phenomenon? I contend that it is not. We are high-level functioning mammals and are fully capable of preventing such actions. Is conception of a new human being a naturally occurring phenomenon? I contend that it is. No matter how high our level of functioning is there is no way that we can deny that this is a normal and natural way that humans bring forth new offspring.
Indeed, pregnancy may have some traumatic aspects. Puberty also has a lot of traumatic aspects yet we do not legalize parents killing their infants to "prevent" such a traumatic event from occurring!
"And BUZZ again, for claiming that most rapes don't involve a risk to women's lives..."
Yes you are correct. Most rapes are obtained violently and many rapes can end in murder as well. I was thinking of cases in which a woman says "no" but allows sexual intercourse to occur anyways and then calls it "rape." I'm sorry for my poor ability to describe what I meant.
"Since it's the procedure that's illegal and not when and why the procedure is carried out, doctors are put in an extremely precarious position between performing an illegal abortion and preventing the suffering of a pregnant woman."
ReplyDeleteYou are uninformed. A partial-birth abortion requires some medically dangerous techniques. The abortionist must use manual inversion to cause a breech delivery. This in itself is a risk that should not be carried out. Furthermore, using a vacuum canula to remove a dead fetus' brain is medically unnecessary. Induced labor for the sole purpose of treating fetal demise never requires the technique and procedure called Partial-Birth Abortion (D&X Abortion). Induced labor is much safer and is the procedure of choice. (( emedicine.medscape.com/article/259165-overview/ ))
"Abortions are medical care."
ReplyDeleteElective abortions that we are discussing are done for social reasons. This is not medical care.
"Pregnancy is a condition that effects the health of the woman and can even result in death."
The same can be said about talking penicillin, aspirin, walking on a side-walk, driving a car, taking a shower, and all other things in the world. Current advances in medicine have allowed pregnancy to become amazingly safe. When used properly, cesarean sections can save so many lives (the fetus and the mother) as does many other interventions.
Further, you are ignoring that pregnancy is a non-pathological and naturally occurring process. If and when this process becomes pathological (such as in ectopic pregnancy, gestational diabetes, pregnancy induced hypertension, etc) then it can certainly be managed medically. In some cases the death of the embryo or fetus is required to treat pregnancy in a proper way. This would be a side effect of treatment to save the life of the mother and is not the same as an elective procedure (such as elective abortion, elective cesarean section, elective breast reconstruction following breast cancer, etc).
"You ARE trivializing women's experiences."
You say so though it is not true. No need for projection.
"...it's just a walk in the park for every woman who gets pregnant."
I know that it's not "just a walk in the park" but I do know that pregnancy is not a pathological condition.
"ONCE AGAIN, women are not walking uteruses."
Duh. I asked a question and have not received an answer. Oh well.
"You obviously don't care about women's lives..."
Attack the messenger! Poor technique, PCGal.
"Do you think that rape victims don't have the right to defend themselves?"
Refer to my previous posts. I have already answered your question. Those who are raped are entitled to an equal reaction to defend themselves. If a victim of rape believes that she may be killed in the process then deadly force can certainly be defended in court and I would most likely agree with such deadly force. However, a "victim" that quietly says "no" to sex but could have avoided intercourse had she pushed the man away but instead kills the man with a gun between the eye? I don't support that.
As I have mentioned, it greatly depends on each and every situation.
A forceful rape can be properly defended with deadly force.
A woman who will die from an ectopic pregnancy without a procedure to remove the procedure should certainly use the procedure to defend her life.
A naturally occurring and non-pathologic pregnancy, however, should not use deadly force when deadly force is certainly not being used against her.
In the case of PIH or other serious pregnancy-induced pathologic conditions, these can be properly managed and then the pregnancy terminated WITHOUT the death of the fetus.
"Indeed, pregnancy may have some traumatic aspects. Puberty also has a lot of traumatic aspects "
ReplyDeleteHow the HELL can you compare the trauma of forced pregnancy to the "trauma" of puberty? I didn't experience ANY trauma from puberty. I don't know anyone who has. I don't think you've
"I was thinking of cases in which a woman says "no" but allows sexual intercourse to occur anyways and then calls it "rape.""
UH, WHAT? If a woman says no then she never "allowed" rape to happen. If she says no and he continues, then she's not just "calling" it rape, it IS rape. How much does a woman have to fight before you consider it rape? How many women have you raped? You, sir, are a pro-rapist/a rape apologist.
Rape is defined as sexual intercourse that occurs without consent. Just because a person may not right to the death doesn't mean that she gave consent.
I'll let that comment stand so people can see how misogynistic you are, but any more pro-rape comments coming from you will be immediately deleted. Rape victims can't usually find safe places within groups of friends or even within their own family. If I can provide one safe place for rape victims, I won't let a pro-rape motherfucker like yourself ruin it. I try my best to be nice to antis, but pro-rapists have no place place in my heart.
As a nurse, a Catholic, and ProChoicer, I am so thankful that women have the right to chose.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteDon't get so excited there, Femily. Do you know the history of the laws regarding slavery and the holocaust? Just because atrocities have been legalalized in history doesn't make them morally right. Truth is never dependent on the consensus of those in positions of authority or the majority's public opinion. Keep swimming in De Nile.
The inverse is also true: Just because certain behavior was/is illegal or restricted (such as abortion, gay marriage, prostitution, illicit drug use) doesn't make the behavior immoral.
I want to take the opportunity to thank all the truly STRONG women who gave of themselves by giving up their children for adoption. We are so glad you didn't kill yourselves and children instead. You've made the world a better place because of your sacrifices.
I don't know what your experience with adoption is, but it certainly isn't the stroll through Strawberry Fields that you seem to think it is. The process is stressful for both the birth parents and the children. I've known people who have been adopted right after birth, and I've worked with dozens of children of all ages who are slowly making their way through the adoption system. It's very tough on everyone involved.
And before you ask, "DO U TINK THEYD B BETTER OFF BORTED?!!?!11?!one!" I'll tell you exactly what I think right now. Most of the kids I work with were taken away from their parents right after birth and placed in foster care, because they were born with drugs in their system. Others were placed in foster care after numerous charges of abuse and neglect. They were born to people who can't exercise good judgment because of drug addiction, severe mental illness, or mild mental retardation (women and men I'd hardly define as strong). I wish that these parents received the help they need before they had children that they can't take care of. And that's all I have to say on that subject.
"As a nurse, a Catholic, and ProChoicer, I am so thankful that women have the right to chose."
ReplyDeleteFrom the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2270): "Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life."
You might want to reconsider your stance on abortion or the faith that you profess. I pray that you may gain a better understanding of your Catholic Faith and remain a Catholic. I also pray that you will not continue to support the slaying of millions of innocent human beings.
Superjules,
ReplyDeleteYou are a cafeteria catholic, not a true Catholic. Catholics do not pick and choose what commandments to follow based on what works best for them. You definitely cannot support abortion and still be considered Catholic (well, I guess you can in your mind if you want).
What parish do you belong to and how often do you attend? Are you sure you're not a Creaster? Please go talk with a Catholic priest/nun about your beliefs and be open-minded about what he/she talks about.
FEM - Not much to say. It's obvious you think you are The Decider of what a Quality Life entails.
PCG - Whew. Please, please get some help for what you went through. Where do you see that Sagamon supports rape in any way? Wow. Take your blinders off. I have been raped twice in my life and I'm not seeing where he's supporting rape. Rape is terrible but not all men are the enemy. Rape also does not have to define who you are nor does it have to keep you in a victim/perp mindset forever.
Anonymous-
ReplyDeleteyou must have missed this statement
"I was thinking of cases in which a woman says "no" but allows sexual intercourse to occur anyways and then calls it "rape.""
Basically, he's saying that rape isn't rape unless the woman fights enough. That is supporting rape. If you can't see that, then you are the one that is blind.
I already told you that I'd delete every pro-rape comment that you make, segamon. Stop whining about it.
ReplyDeleteAll you like to do is to attack those who are against you.
ReplyDeleteThis particular comment is not "pro-rape." Thus, if it is deleted then you are deleting for reasons OTHER than what you have stated.
I would like to hear a response regarding my other points in my argument rather than being told that I'm some sort of evil misogynist.
Forget the fact that I cannot explain what was meant by what I said... *ugh* gotta love those who use personal attacks to further their own agenda (those people are called politicians, right?).
ReplyDeleteAs if what you said made it any better. It didn't. You tried to justify your hatred with even more hatred. That doesn't work.
ReplyDeleteThen why not leave up my comments so that everyone who reads it "can see how misogynistic [I am]"? *rolls eyes*
ReplyDeleteI already explained that.
ReplyDelete"..any more pro-rape comments coming from you will be immediately deleted. Rape victims can't usually find safe places within groups of friends or even within their own family. If I can provide one safe place for rape victims, I won't let a pro-rape motherfucker like yourself ruin it."
Then actually explain why? Would my comments mean that I'm running some type of rape crisis center? What's the harm? ...well, except maybe your pride.
ReplyDeleteThe harm? It hurts to hear people justifying rape. It hurts to live in the rape culture, and to see people actively promoting the rape culture. It's detrimental to the healing process. That is the harm.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I'm not justifying rape. I was discussing the aspects of using self defense. I am just as much against rape as you are. I have considered being a "Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner" for that very reason.
ReplyDeleteYou say that you're not justifying rape, and then you go on to imply that some types of rape are okay. That is bullshit. Please don't be a "sexual assault nurse examiner" until you've learned more about rape.
ReplyDeleteYep, deleted. Basically, you're telling women that it's OUR job to not get ourselves raped.
ReplyDelete*sigh* What kind of psychopath are you? Please explain to me how the last comment that you deleted somehow was "pro-rape."
ReplyDelete"...you're telling women that it's OUR job to not get ourselves raped."
ReplyDeleteNope. You're really out there in la-la land. My wife (who is a smart and very strong-willed woman BTW) totally understands my perspective.
You wish to ignore that of which you disagree and wish to attack and misrepresent the character of those that present an opposing view. I feel for you.
ReplyDeleteIf you wish to address the numerous other points I had in my argument, you are free to do so.
I pray for your soul if you actually do accomplish your goal of destroying the innocent lives of unborn human beings. May God help you.
Have a good night.
Ugh, another pathetic anti-choice, anti-freedom, anti-woman and, of course, pro-rape religious male zealot...
ReplyDeleteProChoiceGal, you did more than your share of putting up with this chauvanist fundie assclown.
Here's a gem!
"pregnancy is a non-pathological and naturally occurring process"
So, we all get to level the term "pathology" to any action we personally deem immoral, now?
Great! Sounds good to me! I guess if this guy can determine pathologies, so can I! It's all the rage!
I'll say it again...childbirth is as "elective" as abortion..abortions naturally occur, just as childbirth does..pregnancies can be medically induced, just as abortions can..it's anyone's choice..and in America, land of the free, it is L-E-G-A-L and awesome!
If you want to consider it "slaying" children, have at it! Wallow in your torture porn if that's what gets your teeny weeny off, but never forget for a second that millions of women, men, families do not consider that to be the case at all. Safe legal abortions are a right in this country and I, for one, will definitely fight HARD to keep it that way.
But, please, let's continue casually throwing the term "pathology" around to suit our personal views, shall we. Why should you have all the fun, Sega boy!
Personally, I find many couples who can't stop having children because they either feel they have little else to contribute to society or to further some inane archaic patriarchal order to be quite pathological.
I think pious idiots that discourage contraception and encourage ginormous families by surreptiously indoctrinating women to believe they serve little purpose outside of being sperm receptacles and incubators is also rather pathological.
I could go on...howabout the epidemic of pathological lying and pathological covering up of pathological child rape on the part of pathological "elders" in the pathological Catholic clergy that has been uncovered and litigated time and again and now threatens to reach all the way to the pathological Pope himself?
Y'see "pathology" is in the eye of the beholder isn't it?
Well, no, not really. Real world pathologies are quantified and peer reviewed and not based on religious fundamentalist dogma. However, if one chooses to study the pathologies inherent in many religions, one can find countless published academic studies on a variety of organized cults, including Catholicism.
Abortion is legal, safe and very normal. Clinically speaking, it's a pedestrian procedure, hence the moronic antichoice stereotype of the callous, casual "abortionist".
The only thing that makes abortion in any way out of the ordinary is the inane din of nonsensical screeching by antichoice, anti-woman douchebags who harass pregnant women and workers at clinics and pro-choice outlets here on the web.
60th Street,
ReplyDeleteYour post is full of opinions. I don't go for that crap.
I was using the term "pathology" in it's proper medical context for this discussion. "Pathology: the branch of medicine dealing with the essential nature of disease, especially changes in body tissues and organs that cause or are caused by disease." (Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers. © 2007)
Care to call pregnancy a "disease"? Sorry, it's not.
Thanks for call me a "douchebag" and saying that I have a "teeny weeny." I don't need anyone on Earth to give me any confidence. What I do need is to humble myself. Indeed, my only confidence is in the facts. Contrarily, your confidence is in character assassination.
If you care to discuss the facts of the debate then feel free to contact me. If all that you will provide are ad hominem and misrepresentation then count me out.
Yes, consider your character assassinated, assuming you had any to begin with, which I doubt.
ReplyDeleteAnd, consider me having counted you out and written you off, Doc.
Uh-huh... how about the topic at hand? I guess that means that your argument has been "assassinated" too?
ReplyDeleteWhether or not I'm some type of misogynist, pro-rape, woman hating, discriminating jerk doesn't mean anything in regards to the argument. The fact that I'm not any one of those things is besides the point.
Why in the world would my wife not think that I'm those things? Why in the world do you think that my female coworkers have loved my demeaner, work-ethic, compassion, bed side manner, and loving nursing care?
Character assassination sucks so much because the debate is ignored. That is why such a technique is used when someone is losing an argument.
Care to call pregnancy a disease? ...or maybe you just wish to continue accusing me of other atrocious things. I'll make it easier for you by asking you a question: do you think I'm a racist? ...YEA, DEM RACIST RIGHT WINGERS!!!!!1!!1!
PCG = Do you really think 60th Street Guy really cares about women and children? His main worry is that he and others like him not be held responsible for irresponsible sexual behaviors. (Wolf in Sheeps Clothing). He sure has you fooled.
ReplyDeleteYou and he both need to realize that when you call names it says so much more about how you feel about yourselves than it does about anyone else.
"but never forget for a second that millions of women, men, families do not consider that to be the case at all."
Also never forget for a second that millions of women, men, families also supported slavery and the Holocaust.
60th Street Guy - Not enough siblings to share with growing up? It's never too late to learn to play nice. Peace
I should have read the comments on other posts on this blog. PCGal used character assassination on Carla too. I guess the pro-life arguments are just too hard to take?
ReplyDelete"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upston Sinclair
ReplyDeleteOr Future Big $$$ in PCGs case.
SegaMon - God Bless You and Your Family
(Pope John Paul's Spirit and TOB is
Alive and Guiding You)
Thank you for your support, Anon. May God bless you too! ^_^
ReplyDeleteFEMily,
ReplyDeleteIn regards to the people you work with and whether you believe they should have been aborted instead you write:
"They were born to people who can't exercise good judgment because of drug addiction, severe mental illness, or mild mental retardation (women and men I'd hardly define as strong). I wish that these parents received the help they need before they had children that they can't take care of."
Was over visiting your site and noticed your Pregnant Women Porn link. At age 25, I guess you haven't yet put together the correlation between the objectification (and therefore sexual abuse)of women and pornography.
And you seriously think you are qualified to make comments like the one above? Some people deal with mental illnesses throughout their whole life in spite of getting professional help. With your logic, they should all be sterilized.
Where do you work? I think your employer should be made aware of the statements you are making about the people you SHOULD BE caring for. No wonder you hide behind a pencil drawing.
In addition, the fact that you are far enough into porn (what respect for motherhood you show!) that you would actually put it on your site, makes you a porn addict, young lady, and you are in NO position to judge the parents of or the people YOU SHOULD be helping. I would not allow you to take care of my goldfish to say nothing of my loved ones.
I hope you get the help you need before you become a parent. However, if you don't, I won't condone the killing of your child.
Peace
SegaMon, you are a nurse, so I suggest you stop dabbling in the law. I am in law and I don't go about making comments about the nursing profession.
ReplyDeleteDo you think rapists say to their victims, "don't worry, I'm just going to force you to have sex with me, but I won't kill you"? As far as I am concerned, if a man is forcing me to have sex, I have the right to use deadly force. And good thing men like you don't make the laws, because the real lawmakers agree with me. Rape, by definition, is non-consensual. It doesn't matter "how" I say no, or how "insistent" I am. 'No' or 'I don't think I want to do this', mean the same thing --> NO! Women don't often use direct language for fear the man may get violent. So yes, some women don't "fight" in the hopes that it might save their lives. Others fight like hell, and they get told they "asked for it" by wearing a tight top, or walking home alone, etc.
I'd like men like you to wear a big sign that says "sometimes rape isn't rape" so women can find you and run the other way.
"I didn't experience ANY trauma from puberty. I don't know anyone who has."
ReplyDeleteI have. I was a tree-climbing, snake-catching tomboy before I was struck with DD breasts practically OVERNIGHT. There was something going on inside my body that troubled and frightened me and permanently altered my physical body that I was unable to do anything about...BECAUSE IT WAS NATURAL AND NORMAL! Guess what: IT WASN'T HARMING ME-IT WAS NATURAL DEVELOPMENT, AND I HAD TO LIVE WITH IT. See: pregnancy and childbirth. Puberty was more traumatizing to me than pregnancy and childbirth, and I don't appreciate your attempt to minimize and remove my experience from me.
"So, we all get to level the term "pathology" to any action we personally deem immoral, now?"
Once again, 60th_Street has trouble with definitions. A pathology would indicate something that is physically detrimental or causing bodily harm to a person. Pregnancy is not that. We don't "decide" what pathology means, we just know what it means through learning. Maybe you'll be able to do the same thing one day.
"...women to believe they serve little purpose outside of being sperm receptacles and incubators..."
Wow...Girl power, amirite? You guys love demeaning women who mother their children instead of kill them. I guess the only women worthy of respect and "liberty" to you all are the ones that elect to have their children killed in the womb. So much for "equal rights". lol
"IT WASN'T HARMING ME-"
ReplyDeleteIf it wasn't harming you, then it wasn't trauma.
Trauma-
An emotional wound or shock that creates substantial, lasting damage to the psychological development of a person, often leading to neurosis.
I'm 19 years old. I've been married to my husband, a Marine, for 1 year. This January I had a medical abortion and I do no regret it. My husband and I didn't feel ready to have a baby, and it's unreasonable for anti choicers to say, "JUST KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED!!!!" to a married woman. Of course we're going to have sex, and unfortunately I got pregnant. My abortion went well and my husband was there to take care of me and make sure I was as comfortable as possible.
ReplyDeleteI was 8 weeks pregnant and I saw with my own eyes the entire pregnancy as I expelled it, but I wasn't repulsed. I was relieved! I thought now, I can move on with my life. I am still in a strong, loving marriage and want to be proof that a woman can live a happy, productive life after an abortion. It doesn't have to haunt you.
Thank you Pro Choice Gal for your tweets and blog. Sometimes I want to tell you, "Don't even bother talking to these antis! You'll just give yourself high blood pressure." But at the same time, you're right, our silence just feeds them, and we have to speak up. So thank you.
I am a pro-life woman who has been raped twice in my life and PCG has deleted my remarks. My remarks were not in anyway inappropriate and I can only guess they are not what she wants to hear. I have not behaved in any way that comes even close to how she talks or how other pro-aborts talk on here (calling names, showing complete hatred for those who believe differently than them).
ReplyDeletePCG has started to control what appears on here because her beliefs are the exact opposite of those who believe life begins at conception and we were getting into areas that I can only guess cause her too much discomfort (as they should).
After thought-provoking comments are deleted, you can no longer have faith that PCG is unbiased in any way. I'm guessing this will probably be deleted as well.
You were defending SegaMon's rape apologist views. I already said that I don't want any more of that on here.
ReplyDeleteIn case you haven't noticed, I've been leaving all of your anti-choice comments up. I've been deleting the rape apologist ones. It has nothing to do with you being an anti.
"you can no longer have faith that PCG is unbiased in any way."
Lol. Nope, I'm not "unbiased". I'm strongly pro-choice and anti-rape, in case you haven't noticed.
To those who responded to my statement-- thanks for your opinions and questions about my faith but I don't need your criticism or your judgment!
ReplyDeleteYou are entitled to your beliefs just as I am entitled to mine.
I am a nurse.
I am a Catholic.
I am ProChoice.
Yup!
Anonymous- I loved your comment, and thank you so much for your support!
ReplyDeleteSuperjules- You are a nurse, you are a Catholic, you are pro-choice, and you are also totally awesome. Thank you! XD
After thought-provoking comments are deleted, you can no longer have faith that PCG is unbiased in any way.
ReplyDeleteYou are unable to prove anything when you delete both mine and SegaMon's views. I was able to read SegaMon's comments before you deleted them and you know deep down that both SegaMon and I had thought-provoking comments. Said comments were not IN ANY WAY disrespectful and did not condone rape in the least.
When your back is up against the wall, YOU decide what others can comprehend and want to hear. You will take CONTROL about what you think others should hear. Isn't this what you claim to fight against? Why not just block out any pro-lifers from this site? You are lying when you state my comments in any way defended rape or rape apologists!
The only voice that truly matters in your world, is your own.
Nice to hear you are laughing out loud. Some of us are really crying inside.
"It is a poverty for you to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
Life Begins at Conception
"Said comments were not IN ANY WAY disrespectful and did not condone rape in the least."
ReplyDeleteYou just said that you didn't read his comments. How would you know that they did not condone rape?
If you can't stand the fact that I can monitor my own blog, then leave.
I was not able to read his comments you deleted yesterday. I did read the ones of his you deleted today. You also state I defended rape apologists views in my writings. I don't know as if you could ever accuse another rape victim of a more terrible thing.
ReplyDeleteMoniter. Control. You have The Authority. It can be very enpowering to have so much control, can't it? It can also be very dangerous to humanity.
I wish you the very best. Remember to check the notes in your dresser occassionally. We girls seem to keep important notes there.
God Bless You PCG
I did not mean to offend, hurt, or trigger you in any way. If I did, then I sincerely apologize. I just don't understand how you can read that man's comments and not see his victim blaming mentality. I do see that victim blaming mentality, and I do not want that or the defense of that on my blog.
ReplyDeleteUm Anon, the right to free speech is a right that you can only exercise against the government and government bodies. PCG can do what she pleases on her blog. Don't get confused as to your rights. You don't get to enforce your rights against her. She could just put up a filter so NO comments got posted without her approval.
ReplyDeleteI suspect your idea as to what a "rape apologist" is, is wrong, and thus you don't understand why she deleted the comments. As a general rule, ANYTHING that either a) blames the victim in ANY way, or b) makes excuses for the rapist, is rape apology behaviour. Just FYI :)
"PCG can do what she pleases on her blog. Don't get confused as to your rights."
ReplyDeleteI agree.
I also have the right to no longer visit or patronize this blog by posting comments. I have decided to do so because of the excessive use of ad hominem directed at detractors.
NotGuilty and PCGal: You both have constantly misrepresented my view and have not allowed others that visit this site to hear the entire story by deleting my comments. I disagree with your actions.
Anon who was defending my views: I am very thankful for your witness and understanding. It is not the fact that we agree but the fact that we respect each other that matters. :)
Superjules: You said "...I don't need your criticism or your judgment!" I quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church that your stance on abortion is not the same as the Church that you profess a belief in. I was not personally criticizing or judging you. I pray that you either find a faith that more closely resembles your beliefs or for your reconciliation with the Catholic Church's moral teachings.
Everyone: Have a good day! ^_^
let me rephrase that for the benefit of those attempting to take me out of context:
ReplyDeleteThe physical development of my body did not bring about any sort of ACTUAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE TO MY BODY-same as pregnancy/childbirth. It was more emotionally jarring than pregnancy/childbirth. However, NEITHER of those things cause my body lasting physical harm or damage. This is the biological reality with which abortion proponents need to learn to deal. Pregnancy and childbirth can suck. But until you can completely remove the life of a mother's developing child from the equation, abortion should not be a legal option, because maintaining someone's COMFORT and AVOIDING RESPONSIBILITY should never trump their human child's RIGHT TO CONTINUE LIVING. On the list of priorities, staying alive > either comfort or avoiding responsibility.
I'm sorry for the loss of your child, military wife. I hope the reality of what you've done doesn't hurt you emotionally too hard when you allow your first child to live and realize what you've done to this one.
But yeah, Segamon, at this point it's just them jumping on whatever perceived weakness they think they can find in a statement (intentionally using secondary definitions of words to try and obfuscate a statement as they did with mine, or the personal attacks you've been subjected to repeatedly, etc.,) and addressing nothing of what is actually said. It's futile and useless to continue any attempt at conversation. Have a nice life, everyone. I'll see you around the next time one of you decides to saunter onto someone else's blog spouting all sorts of nonsense and expecting not to be taken to task back at your own.
Ok, SM, thanks for the clarification of your statement, but I actually don't need Catholicism to be explained or quoted or defined to me. I'm perfectly content with my faith and my convictions. Even if you disagree with me, my opinions are absolutely just as valid as yours. As humans, we are both equally entitled to our beliefs. I pray for you to open your heart and your mind.
ReplyDeleteCatholic and ProChoice.... Amen!
Jules:
ReplyDelete"You are entitled to your beliefs just as I am entitled to mine."
Well said Jules.
I support the right for you to believe you are Catholic. I support the right for you to believe that abortion is not murder. I support the right for Nazis to believe Jews are parasites. I support the right for white supremists to believe other races are inferior. I support the right for PGL and Linda to believe I support rape and rape apologists.
Thanks for supporting my right to believe that all of the above beliefs are lies.
Gotta know when to hold 'em, gotta know when to fold 'em, gotta know when to walk away. . .
Holy Virgin Mary Pray for us in Jesus Christ our Lords Name
Gotta know when to RUN. . .
Anonymous- You're welcome :D
ReplyDeleteThank God for Choice!
Andrea writes:
ReplyDeleteIsn't abortion all about blaming voiceless victims?
"Was over visiting your site & noticed your Pregnant Women Porn link. At age 25, I guess you haven't yet put together the correlation between the objectification (& therefore sexual abuse)of women & pornography."
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what you're talking about with this link on my blog. But this gives me another opportunity to correct you. There are pro-porn feminists and anti-porn feminists. As an asexual woman, I can't say that I enjoy porn. It's not a part of my life, so it's not something I think or post about. My view on porn is that most of it acts as a safe sexual release for a lot of people. Some porn has the potential to give (mostly) men the wrong idea about healthy sexual relationships & expressions, but I think they had the wrong idea before watching porn & found validation for their paraphilias in watching porn.
"And you seriously think you are qualified to make comments like the one above? Some people deal with mental illnesses throughout their whole life in spite of getting professional help. With your logic, they should all be sterilized."
There's a happy medium between forcing women to give birth & sterilizing people: birth control. I believe people who have serious problems should use birth control, but like I said, many don't have the judgment to use it because of mental disorders. I know they have mental disorders because 1) I have a Master's degree in Psychology, & 2) I read a ton of paperwork on the clients before I meet them. And you don't think people who have such a serious mental illness that they couldn't sufficiently take care of their children DON'T need help? Or do you think parents whose children were taken away from them should never be allowed to see them again? These parents do need help, & they do deserve to see their children.
"Where do you work? I think your employer should be made aware of the statements you are making about the people you SHOULD BE caring for. No wonder you hide behind a pencil drawing."
I repeat: The clients have mental illnesses. I work with a state-wide mental health community agency! I'm not insulting them by saying they suffer from mental disorders & are unable to take care of their children. That's why programs like the one I work for exist.
"In addition, the fact that you are far enough into porn (what respect for motherhood you show!) that you would actually put it on your site, makes you a porn addict, young lady, and you are in NO position to judge the parents of or the people YOU SHOULD be helping. I would not allow you to take care of my goldfish to say nothing of my loved ones."
Again, I have no fucking clue what you're talking about. It's getting pretty funny, actually. And I don't think having a porn link on one's site would make someone a porn addict. I mean, what planet are you from? The Vatican? (that was a joke) Besides, the people I work with have sex! Without being married! And one of my co-workers has a child out of wedlock! Meanwhile, I'm asexual! Are you clutching your pearls yet?
"I hope you get the help you need before you become a parent. However, if you don't, I won't condone the killing of your child."
Another anti-choicer assuming every woman wants a baby! Knock me over with a feather, or however that cliche goes. Anyway, I think you need help, if you're indeed hallucinating pornography sites on my blog. Because there's nothing of the sort there. And you need some education in what rape is, because you clearly don't know, & you could end up hurting someone.
FEMily,
ReplyDeleteYou may wish to revisit the link How To Be A Pregnant Lady on the blog [A] Funny Feminist. Perhaps the site has changed since you last visited it. I would characterize the site as pornographic. Not that I'm criticizing, but you leave the impression that this was not your intent.
Tony writes:
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, during what time period do you think terribly cruel and inappropriate sexual behaviors skyrocketed?
Quote by Fr. Tad Pacholczyk:
"If morality were merely about your and my moral opinions, the results would be disastrous. If I believe racism against blacks and the institution of slavery built upon it are wrong, but you believe they're okay, can we both go our merry ways and live according to our own morality? Clearly not, and the United States had to undergo a terrible civil war to address this very question.
If I believe serial murder and rape are wrong, but you believe they're okay, can we both go off and live according to our own positions? Clearly not, since both positions cannot be true.
These obvious examples illustrate what each of us already knows, namely, that in the real world "relative" truth doesn't work. Suppose you and I each drive towards an intersection with a traffic light. If it were up to you and me to make up our own minds about what color the light is, without any reference to its real color, there would certainly be a lot of accidents at our intersections.
What many fail to realize is that the moral world works similarly. Many people's moral lives are crashing and burning because they fail to respect the non-arbitrary markers of the moral roadmap guiding our human journey. They've slipped into thinking that they can make up their own rules as they go along, and that it's all relative to their own desires or circumstances."
Your view and my view on abortion cannot both be true. You cannot see the forest for the trees.
If you don't want to be labeled as a murder apologist, don't condone the murder of any human life regardless of it's size or condition.
Tony, as I mentioned on the Rape Prevention entry, there is a fundamental difference as to where you and I draw the line on when something becomes "human". There are some groups that believe every wasted sperm is a lost life. By your argument, not both of you can be right, so what makes your view more "right" than theirs? Since you are no more qualified to draw the line than me, or anybody else, you can draw the line with respect to YOUR body, and I'll draw the line with respect to MY body. Then we can both be right!
ReplyDeleteTony replies.
ReplyDeleteWe cannot both be right anymore than the North and South views on slavery could both be right. However, I do understand why you'd like to believe this can be so.
Chelsey writes to Not Guilty:
ReplyDeleteBased on your logic, Who gets to draw the line on what constitutes rape or other moral issues for that matter? I know people who TRULY DO believe that it does matter what the rape victim wore and how she behaves. I also know people who TRULY DO believe because the child gave verbal consent, it was OK to have sex with them.
In the real world, "relative" truth doesn't work. Sorry, you can't pick and choose.
You and Tony cannot both be right.
Chelsey, the difference is that your friend who rapes a woman who dresses a certain way, his actions affect a living, breathing, feeling human being with opinions, thoughts and loved ones.
ReplyDeleteA fetus does NOT feel, think, love, or breathe, no matter what junk science you choose to believe. The ONLY body involved is mine and I get to decide what happens to MY body. And the rest of you can go jump in a lake.
I am not saying that line drawing is appropriate in all cases (it certainly isn't in law). I was using it to illustrate a point. There is a fundamental difference between anti's and pro-choicers, mainly, who matters. And it all comes back to this: anti's don't give a damn about the woman who is host to the parasitic fetus. So if you think the life of your fetus begins at conception, fine. But with MY body, it begins at viability (that is not to say I will tell another woman that is the standard that applies to her).
Chelsey says to Never Guilty:
ReplyDeleteWhat if your friend has sex with a woman who is comotose (hooked up to machines, not breathing on her own? Are you the one who decides whether or not this woman has thoughts, feelings, opinions? Your logic would not make your friend guilty of rape.(If you have never heard, let me be the first to tell you that abortion also affects loved ones of both the mother and fetus.)
You are right about one thing. "There is a fundamental difference between" the two sides. All human life is of equal importance to the pro-lifers-- from conception to natural death. The only life that is important to the pro-aborts is their own.
If it swims like a duck. . .
Please excuse me now, I'm going to jump in a lake and kiss a swimming pro-abort. Quack, Quack
You and Tony cannot both be right.
Chelsey adds:
ReplyDeleteOh no, the duck is drowning. HELP!!!
"The only life that is important to the pro-aborts is their own."
ReplyDeleteThen why are our doctors sacrificing their lives? I'm pro-choice because I care about other peoples' lives. Not my own.
Do you think I am taking the abuse from anti's like you because I care about my life? I've never had an abortion and I am fighting people like you for the sake of other women. Abortion is legal and accessible in Canada, so why am I engaging in discourse with anti's in America? US laws don't affect me. And yet here I am, standing up for American women and THEIR rights. But ya, I only care about MY life.
ReplyDeleteStop caring so much about potential life and go out and show some of your "caring" to children in foster care or group homes. Those kids are alive and want to be loved. The fetus has no wants, only instinct (if that).
Chelsey says:
ReplyDeleteI work with kids in group homes.
J.P. says:
ReplyDeleteWords written previously by Not Guilty on one thread:
"All you need to do is ask yourself one question: Does my abortion affect YOU directly? Because you don't know me, the answer must be no. Thus YOU don't get a say in what I do with MY body. End of discussion."
Here are more words by Not Guilty on this thread:
"I've never had an abortion and I am fighting people like you for the sake of other women. Abortion is legal and accessible in Canada, so why am I engaging in discourse with anti's in America? US laws don't affect me. And yet here I am, standing up for American women and THEIR rights."
According to YOUR OWN logic Not Guilty, All you need to do is ask yourself one question: Do my liberties affect YOU directly? Because you don't know me, the answer must be no. Thus YOU don't get a say in what goes on in MY country.
Stop caring so much about life in my county and go out and show some of your "caring" to unborn children and pregnant women in Canada. Your country has enough unborn children of it's own you can help kill.
End of discussion.
Why don't you introduce yourself to those you attempt to dehumanize through nicknames on your site so you can learn their names? I've not seen as much hate professed on one site in a long time. It is apparent that you have a strong hatred towards many of your already-born human beings.
ReplyDeleteWhat's up with your aversion to crucifixes and pink hats? If you don't care what people do to and with their bodies and their unborn, why do you care what they wear?
It is impossible for you to hide the amount of hatred you have inside of you.
Forgot to address the above comment to Not Guilty (of anything apparently!)
ReplyDeleteWords by PCG: "I'm pro-choice because I care about other peoples' lives. Not my own."
ReplyDeleteHang tough PCG. Probably just a Freudian Slip. The prayers are working. . . .
Chelsey replies,
ReplyDeleteNot Guilty:
Your definition of abuse is very wide. So is your definition of Life.
Quick, catch it! Grab!
Mr. Taylor adds,
ReplyDeleteI am on lunch break after finishing up with students in science lab.
Life begins at conception and I am not a "junk" scientist.
http://www.humanlife.org/abortion_scientists_attest.php