If you are a woman, you have most likely grown up hearing people give you a long, long, list of things that you should/should not do in order not to get yourself raped. This list includes:
1) Not wearing a short skirt.
2) Not taking walks without a male friend with you.
3) Taking self defense classes.
4) Not drinking alcohol or doing drugs (not because of the health risks, JUST so you don't get yourself raped)
5) Not leaving your drink alone.
6) Avoiding certain hairstyles.
7) Avoiding wearing heels.
8) Not wearing a low cut blouse.
9) Carrying pepper spray with you.
10) Not living by yourself.
11) Refraining from passing out during a party.
12) Not flirting with a person who you aren't willing to have sex with.
13) Not dancing with a person who you aren't willing to have sex with.
14) Maintaining your virginity.
15) Not walking in certain ways.
and if you don't follow that list, well then, it's your fault anyway! You didn't get raped, you got yourself raped!
A lot of the people who tell women how to not get raped claim that they aren't blaming the victims. They claim that, even though it's not technically the victim's fault if she didn't follow all of the rules as to how not to get raped, it's still a woman's responsibility to learn all of these rules in order to prevent her own rape. A lot of them may not straight out blame the victim for her own rape, but will do so indirectly by putting the responsibility of preventing rape on her shoulders, as opposed to rapists' shoulders.
Aside from rape and some other hate crimes, like the assault and murder of trans people, I am not aware of any other crimes that people try to end by giving the responsibility of ending it to the victims. We don't tell people that they shouldn't drive in order to avoid getting hit by drunk drivers. We tell people not to drive while drunk. We don't tell people not to dress like they're rich in order to avoid getting robbed. We tell people not to steal. It's that simple. The responsibility of preventing rape should be completely focused on teaching people, men and women alike, to respect each others bodily autonomy and on teaching people the meaning of consent. Consent is not silence or a "well.. I guess". Consent is an enthusiastic YES! Consent doesn't mean that one person is just laying there, staring at the wall blankly. Consent is when both partners are very much engaged. Our society has this idea that, unless a woman is screaming for the other person to stop and is using a lot of physical force, that she has consented and it's okay for the man to go on. That is not what consent is.
It's obvious that we have a major problem on our hands, when it comes to rape and assault. One of the biggest problems is that we're attempting to prevent rape in the wrong way. We're taking a bad approach. Instead of giving women a long set of rules on how to not get rape, I propose that we ditch those rules and give people a long set of rules on how to prevent rape. Here's my list.
How to prevent rape
1) When your partner says no, s/he means no. S/he does not mean "wait a few minutes, then try again".
2) When your partner says no, don't say "aww, why? It's not that bad, I promise! I'll go easy on you!" Instead, say something like "Okay. Maybe we should cuddle instead!"
3) Understand that, if you are not 100% sure that your partner wants to have sex, that you need to stop and ask hir* if s/he is okay with it. If s/he says anything but a very confident "yes", then STOP.
4) Refrain putting drugs in people's drinks that will make them pass out so you can rape them.
5) Understand that, if a person is unable to consent (underage, asleep, passed out, drunk) that, if you have sex with hir, it is rape.
6) When your friend says "Hey, there's some passed out chick upstairs. I had my turn with her, go have fun!" do not rape the girl who is passed out. Instead, CALL THE POLICE.
7) Refrain from intentionally getting someone drunk so you can take advantage of hir.
8) Do not use language that objectifies and dehumanizes women. Doing this sets up a climate in which rape may be seen as "okay".
9) Do not blame people for being raped. Ever. Understand that it is ALWAYS 100% the rapist's fault, and that .
10) Understand that, if a person is a sex worker, then it's not okay to rape hir.
11) Understand that, if a person is walking alone at night, then it's not okay to rape hir.
12) Understand that, despite the clothing that a person is wearing, it's not okay to rape hir.
13) If your partner changes hir mind in the middle of any sex act, do not continue!
14) If your friends are rape apologists, try to educate them. If they still insist on defending rape, ditch the friendship.
15) If your so-called "friend" tells you that s/he raped someone, call the police.
16) Ditch the standard rules on how to prevent rape, because they are misdirected. Teach your friends and family rules that work.
If you have any other ideas, feel free to post them in the comments! :)
*gender neutral pronoun
Sunday, March 14, 2010
60 comments:
***PLEASE READ***
Due to constant spam and derailing coming from a few antis, I am now making this blog a "safe place". This does not mean that I won't allow opposing views. It means that I'm not longer going to allow hateful or unrelated/spammy comments. This will continue on until the anti-choice spammers get bored with harassing me and the people who post here, and is especially relevant when it comes to the topic of rape. I hope this doesn't deter any respectful people from commenting. :)
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My way of preventing rape has served my pretty well thus far.
ReplyDelete1. Be ugly and weird.
2. If any unfamiliar male touches you, RUN LIKE HELL.
3. Don't go out much, especially not at night.
4. If any male, familiar or not, doesn't stop touching you after seeing your instinctive recoil, kick him in the nuts and/or run like hell.
5. Scare people around you into believing you're strong and unpredictable. If this doesn't work, call 911 anytime you feel threatened (see 2 and 4).
This is just common sense, really. (Well, 1 is something I've born with, but exaggeration helps.)
Never been raped so far, not likely to ever be raped... and I'm happy about it! :-)
After reflecting on my own (past) reactions to hearing about women being raped, I have realized that the reason many women "blame" the victim is not because they actually think it is her fault. They do it because if she got raped because she did X (any one of the first set of "rape rules"). If I don't do X, then I won't be raped. It is a way for women to distance themselves from the possibility of being a victim. Ultimately, for women who aren't aware, it is a coping mechanism. Fact is, if a rapist is around, there may be little we can do, and that lack of control is scary. And thus, we blame the victim. Now that I am aware of the behaviour, I stop engaging in it. And I try and educate my friends. Great post.
ReplyDeleteFact is, the acquaintance who offers to drive you home when you've had a little too much to drink is far more likely to rape you than the stranger who taps you on the shoulder in the street. Stranger rape happens, of course, but a woman is 4x more likely to be raped by someone she already knows.
ReplyDeleteWhat this means is that most rapists don't hide in the bushes waiting for the girl with the miniskirt to jog by. Most rapists get to know the girl; earn her trust, or at the very least, establish themselves as a familiar face. There is not one shred of proof that dressing, walking, or living a certain way will prevent someone from being targeted like that. And it doesn't matter what sort of security system you have if you LET the guy in because you trust him.
Tragically, almost ALL victims of acquaintance rape NEVER report it to the police. I don't think it's unreasonable to partially blame that fact on (A) the incorrect notion that stranger rape is the only "real" rape, and (B) the spread of propoganda to put shift the blame to the victims. If you've been a victim of acquaintance rape, it's all to easy to blame yourself for drinking, "leading him on," etc. Our culture encourages it.
This should be distributed everywhere, especially in schools.
ReplyDeleteBelieve anyone who has told you they've been raped. At least pretend like you believe them and assist them in getting the help they need. If someone isn't sure if they've been raped, and you're not sure if they were raped, proceed as if you're 100% sure a rape occurred -- call the police, find a therapy or support group, take them to the hospital, etc.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how many pro-lifers from the other post are going to make their way over here.
"Believe anyone who has told you they've been raped."
ReplyDeleteYES! It seems like a lot of people, particularly people who call themselves anti-feminists/MRAs, assume that people who say they've been raped are lying. It strikes me as odd. You wouldn't automatically assume that someone was lying about being robbed, so why would you do that with rape?
I actually have used the be gross philosophy if a guy is making me uncomfortable. I've picked my nose and wiped it on a guy's shirt. He left me alone after that. Ha ha.
ReplyDeleteJeez, with the misogynistic generalizations of women in our society I'm surprised most of us can manage brushing our teeth in the morning.
ReplyDeleteAnd I never really thought about that aspect of women victim-blaming their peers before, but 'Not Guilty' is probably right.
Great post as always, PCG.
This! I wish people would learn that anything other than an enthusiastic yes probably isn't a moral form of sex. And if a person expresses in any way, verbal or physical, that they don't want sex and you continue, it's rape.
ReplyDeleteAnd everyone should absolutely believe and support any person who feels they may have been raped. Acquaintance rape is an extremely confusing event, and one that can make you second guess yourself for years after. Having others tell you that you're lying only makes you feel more crazy than you already do.
Seriously, I want to know what the pro-lifers who left like a hundred comments in the last post think about this.
ReplyDeleteAndrea adds:
ReplyDeleteFEMily
We seriously still think you need help. But your getting there. You called us what we are, Pro-Life not Anti-Choice.
Linda and PCG - NEVER, NEVER TELL A RAPE VICTIM THAT SHE (OR HE) IS PRO-RAPE or SUPPORTS RAPE APOLOGISTS. This should go without saying.
Andrea says:
ReplyDeleteOops was just informed that the above should have been addressed to 'Not Guilty' and 'PCG', not Linda.
That would be like saying "never tell a Black person that they're racist, or a gay person that they're a homophobe, or a woman that she's sexist." If the shoe fits, you know? Being a victim of rape doesn't mean that person can't possibly be a rape apologist ever. I think a lot of women who are rape apologists are probably rape victims themselves, in the same way that a lot of homophobes are closeted gays. There's a lot of internalized hatred that marginalized or victimized people have for themselves, and rape victims are no exception.
ReplyDeleteI think that some men who are rape apologists are rape/molestation victims too. But I think more of them have raped someone before but didn't think it was rape at the time, and are now trying to rationalize their fears of having raped someone (perhaps even several people) by defining rape in a way that doesn't describe the rape they committed. Like, they define rape as a guy jumping out of the bushes and dragging a solitary lady into a dark alley, beating her senseless, and forcing her to have sex. But all the rapes they've committed were coerced sex with a girlfriend who said yes once after saying no ten times. So he can explain away all of the rapes he committed by perpetuating the myth that rape only occurs in a certain, very narrowly defined circumstance, making him a rape apologist.
ReplyDeleteGreat post! Someone I know said that telling women how to prevent rape isn't automatically victim-blaming, it's just pragmatic. She said it's just like telling people to lock their doors at night - if someone broke into a house and the owners hadn't locked the front door, you'd say "that's terrible that it happened to you, but you really should've locked the front door".
ReplyDeleteAnd I thought, yeeeahhh... but what's the rape equivalent? Don't walk home alone? But that ignores the fact that the vast majority of rapes are committed by people known to the victim! Only 8% of rapes are committed by strangers!
I'm not sure there can ever be a hard-and-fast rule to prevent rape, so you can't really tell women what to do and what not to do to prevent rape. The best way, as you said, is to educate people about rape, teach them from a young age to respect their bodies and other people's bodies, and teach people what consent actually means.
Anon, if you don't want to be labelled a rape apologist, then don't be one. I don't care if you have been raped or not; that doesn't affect my conclusion based on things you say (that isn't to say I don't sympathize, but I don't care in the context of calling you can apologist). If it walks like a duck...
ReplyDeleteThe problem with teaching kids about rape, etc, is that you have to talk about sex, and that eliminates how many US schools who stick to an abstinence only "education" (which, thus leads to unwanted pregnancies at an alarming rate, and thus more abortions). So while I absolutely agree that sex ed should include a component about consent, until the US moves out of the dark ages and talks with children openly about sex, rape will continue to occur because the US is raising a generation of (mostly) men, who don't know what consent is (or isn't).
Great post.
ReplyDeleteMeredith, I mean no disrespect, but 'ugly and weird' is no defence and to say so simply perpetuates rape apology. All kinds of people of all shapes, sizes, colours, genders, ages are raped. It doesn't matter if you're disabled or currently not disabled, fat or thin, well-groomed or smelly! Rape is not flattery! Rape is not 'hey, you're so beautiful I can't help myself!' Implying that it is puts the responsibility back with the victim. Rape is about power, control, hate, violence, disrespect...anyone can be a victim of those things.
Tony writes:
ReplyDelete"until the US moves out of the dark ages and talks with children openly about sex, rape will continue to occur because the US is raising a generation of (mostly) men, who don't know what consent is (or isn't)."
With all due respect, during what time period do you think these terribly cruel and inappropriate sexual behaviors skyrocketed?
Quote by Fr. Tad Pacholczyk:
"If morality were merely about your and my moral opinions, the results would be disastrous. If I believe racism against blacks and the institution of slavery built upon it are wrong, but you believe they're okay, can we both go our merry ways and live according to our own morality? Clearly not, and the United States had to undergo a terrible civil war to address this very question.
If I believe serial murder and rape are wrong, but you believe they're okay, can we both go off and live according to our own positions? Clearly not, since both positions cannot be true.
These obvious examples illustrate what each of us already knows, namely, that in the real world "relative" truth doesn't work. Suppose you and I each drive towards an intersection with a traffic light. If it were up to you and me to make up our own minds about what color the light is, without any reference to its real color, there would certainly be a lot of accidents at our intersections.
What many fail to realize is that the moral world works similarly. Many people's moral lives are crashing and burning because they fail to respect the non-arbitrary markers of the moral roadmap guiding our human journey. They've slipped into thinking that they can make up their own rules as they go along, and that it's all relative to their own desires or circumstances."
Your view and my view on abortion cannot both be true. You cannot see the forest for the trees.
If you don't want to be labeled as a murder apologist, don't condone the murder of any human life regardless of it's size or condition.
Please don't derail this thread. If you want to discuss abortion, please do so in one of the threads that are actually about abortion. This post is not about abortion.
ReplyDeleteAnon, who is 'Tony'? I wrote that and that isn't my name or screen name.
ReplyDeleteSo you think EDUCATION about sex caused an increase in rape? I think the more likely culprit is poverty, which is experienced disproportionately by single mothers. Thus their male children see little of their mothers and rarely have a positive male role model. Want to know some causes of poverty? No government health care, no minimum wage (or minimum wage that you can't survive on), a poor social net for these individuals. I would put money on the fact that these factors play a significant role in increased levels of sexual assault/rape, NOT sex ed.
Men rape women for control reasons, which comes from a lack of respect. Nobody attempts to control in such a way, something they respect. So these men do not respect women, and they likely dehumanize them (like whites did to blacks during slavery). Proper sex education teaches kids about respect for their partner and that sex should be enjoyable for both of them - not just one or the other. The entire purpose of proper sex ed is teaching respect. Respect yourself, so use condoms to prevent STIs, and respect for your partner, so respect their wants too.
And for the record, I don't give a crap what you call me.
I am a Christian, middle/high school teacher/counselor of 20 plus years, who was directed here by some pro-life friends.
ReplyDeleteI work with young male and female sexual assault victims on an almost daily basis.
I contend, you cannot see the forest for the trees.
Why is it OK for you to call a rape victim a rape apologist but when the tables are turned, you don't give a crap. The woman you called this (Anon), very much cared. She also works with young victims and in no way condones rape or those who excuse it. Her comments were not even left up but I believe her when she states that in no way did her comments support rape. This is an example of the dishonesty in your movement. I've also read some of the other writings on here and find many untruths. 40 Days for Life is one example.
Maybe its time you start giving a crap about yourselves, thereby giving you a better foundation to care about others. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Tony
"So these men do not respect women, and they likely dehumanize them (like whites did to blacks during slavery)."
ReplyDeleteAndrea writes:
Or like parents now do to their unborn.
"Why is it OK for you to call a rape victim a rape apologist"
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I do not recall calling her a rape apologist. I said that she was supporting someone who is most definitely rape apologist. Second of all, it's very possible for a rape survivor to be a rape apologist. We live in a rape culture. We're all raised up to be rape apologists. Someone has to break out of that through the means of education before they escape rape apologism.
"Maybe its time you start giving a crap about yourselves, thereby giving you a better foundation to care about others. "
What makes you think that I don't give a crap about myself? I understand that, before I'm able to help others, I have to take care of myself first. I want to help other people, so I do take care of myself.
My last post should have been addressed to Not Guilty who says,
ReplyDelete"Anon, if you don't want to be labelled a rape apologist, then don't be one. I don't care if you have been raped or not; that doesn't affect my conclusion based on things you say."
Was Not Guilty privy to Anon's deleted comments? Who has labeled Alon a rape apologist and for what reasons? What comments exactly of Anon's do you, Not Guilty or anyone else on these posts,conclude make her a rape apologist? I do see however where Not Guilty states that she doesn't care if another woman has been raped or not.
Spilt Milk above says "Meredith, I mean no disrespect, but 'ugly and weird' is no defence and to say so simply perpetuates rape apology."
However, Meredith's post is not deleted. All I can conclude is that you deleted Anon's post based on her pro-life stance since you leave up others who may not fully realize how they contribute to the rape culture albeit in naive and innocent ways.
The rape culture that we are now in was predicted. We are also now in the Culture of Death era that was predicted by spiritual men and women in the 60s.
Someone has to break out of their own pride and sinfulness through means of spiritual education before they can escape the culture of death. This is naivety on their part not the intentional harm to others and society (as were Meridith's comments). This is where I state pro-choice advocates cannot see the forest for the trees. The two issues both contribute to the Culture of Death.
Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you.
Best regards,
Tony
See, when more than one person uses the screen name 'Anon', I can't keep you people straight.
ReplyDeleteThere is a SIGNIFICANT semantic difference. I do not care what YOU call me. That does not mean I don't "give a crap" about myself. Talk about twisting words.
My point about rape apology is that I do not make a determination about rape apology based on whether an individual was raped. That decision is based solely on whether you apologize for the rapist or blame the victim. One Anon said they didn't appreciate being called a rape apologist, and that they had been raped (and thus, I believe, concluding they couldn't be called an apologist). My point is that, if you say things that qualify you as a rape apologist, then you are a rape apologist. I took from PCG that this person made rape apology comments. Forgive me for taking her word over yours. Personal history is irrelevant. I was NOT saying that I don't care that somebody has been raped. In fact your butchered my comment and took out the part where I say "I sympathize". Women can be misogynistic and rape victims can be rape apologist.
That is great that you (whoever you are) are a counsellor, but just because you have the title doesn't mean you are good at it. Abstinence only education is PROVEN (in the real world) to NOT stop teens from having sex, and NOT stop teens from getting pregnant. I believe in real stats and science and the fact is Canada has a lower teen pregnancy rate than the US and we teach SEX ed. So prima facie, abstinence only education FAILS in its goals.
And again, PCG has asked we stick to rape, not abortion but Andrea, this is what is called in law as a 'line drawing exercise'. Somebody has to draw the line as to when life begins. Where you draw the line is fundamentally different from where I draw my line. There are some religions that believe every wasted sperm is a lost child. Why is your "line" any better than their "line"?
In re. to seeing the forest for the trees hidden messages. I get what you are trying to say but in my world, the trees have just as much right to be seen as the forest, because sometimes those trees don't conform and they are special, so they have a right to be individuals.
Tony responds.
ReplyDeleteThere is no argument about when human life begins. That line has been drawn. Your only argument is when does human life attain the same right to continue living that you and I are afforded?
Your words, not mine: "I can't keep 'you people' straight."
What religions believe every wasted sperm is a lost child?
If a majority of the trees are not healthy, the whole forest can be lost.
Tony, wrong. The line for life has NOT been drawn. In Canada, it is when the umbilical cord is cut.
ReplyDelete"you people" is in reference to the 'Anon' name posted under. What the hell does that comment have to do with ANYTHING?
Well for one, the Catholic Church forbids masturbation and birth control, so I would argue they do.
I'm not going to talk in euphemisms with you. It's a waste of my time.
And this post is about rape.
"Tony, wrong. The line for life has NOT been drawn. In Canada, it is when the umbilical cord is cut."
ReplyDeleteJust because Canada's law agrees that abortion should be legal, it does not prove that life actually human life actually begins after the cord is cut. Scientists (and almost all doctors) confirm that human life begins at conception. To state otherwise it just attempts at talking down to people.
People start using the term 'you people' when they have already dehumanized them in their minds. It is obvious that you were referring only to pro-lifers.
When you are ready to argue about positions the Catholic Church professes, let me know. The Church DOES NOT believe every sperm is a lost child. Your statement further spreads falsehoods about a religion in order that you may better attempt to defend your position.
And this post is about rape.
And rape and abortion are both a part of the Culture of Death.
Like I said, junk science. I haven't come across any doctors that believe life begins at conception. Or real scientists.
ReplyDeleteI was not using the term "you people" to dehumanize you; it was a poor choice of words. Get over it.
I will retract my statement re. sperm and life because I cannot substantiate it correctly. I defend my position as being the right one because I'm not telling other people what they can/can't do with their own bodies. You are. And I am not defending myself. All you need to do is ask yourself one question: Does my abortion affect YOU directly? Because you don't know me, the answer must be no. Thus YOU don't get a say in what I do with MY body. End of discussion.
If men could stop raping women, then there would be a need for a whole lot fewer abortions. And believe it or not, I'd like to lower the abortion rate. I just don't want to do it my imposing my will on other people. I want to wipe out rape, incest, abstinence only education, "morality clauses" that allow doctors and pharmacists to refuse women birth control, and make birth control as easy and cheap to get as viagara. When those things happen, I GUARANTEE you the abortion rate will drop because the number of unwanted pregnancies will drop. You offer a band-aid; I am offering a solution to the problem.
Tony writes:
ReplyDeleteQuote by Author Chris West:
"Wise men and women have always recognized the power of the sexual urge to orient, or disorient, not only individuals but entire societies. But in the midst of chaos as we now are, it can be hard to see the forest for the trees.
What's the connection between contraception and the breakdown of marriage and society? I offer the following as a plausible, but admittedly simplified, explanation.
People are often tempted to do things they shouldn't do. Many deterrents within nature itself and within a society help to curb these temptations and maintain order. For example, what would happen to the crime rate in a given society if jail terms suddenly ceased? Let's apply the same logic to errant sexual behavior and see what happens?
Hmmm. . . What would happen if this natural deterrent were taken away through the widespread availability and cultural acceptance of contraception? Not in every marriage, of course, but in a given population, incidents of infidelity would be sure to rise. And what's one of the main causes of divorce? Adultery.
But let's continue with this scenario. Certainly throughout history young people have been tempted to have sex before marriage. Yet one of the main deterrents to succumbing to the temptation has been the fear of unwanted pregnancy. Once again, what would happen if this natural deterrent were taken away through contraception? Not in the case of every hormone-laden young person, but in a given population, incidents of premarital sex would be sure to rise. And premarital sex, as noted in chapter four, is also a key predictor of future divorce.
It gets worse. Since no method of contraception is ever 100% effective, an increase in adultery and premarital sex in a given population will inevitably lead to an increase in "unwanted pregnancies." Abortion logically follows.
Not everyone will resort to abortion, of course. Some will offer their children up for adoption. Other mothers will keep them. Hence the number of children who grow up without a father (which has already been increased by the rise in divorce) will be compounded.
ReplyDeleteAs numerous studies (and common sense) indicate, the chances dramatically increase that these "fatherless" children will grow up in poverty; be abused; have emotional, psychological, and behavioral disorders; suffer poor health; drop out of school; engage in premarital sex; obtain obortions; do drugs; commit violent crimes; and end up in jail. All these social ills compound exponentially from generation to generation since "fatherless" children are also much more likely to have out-of-wedlock births and, if they marry at all, to divorce.
Welcome to the societal chaos in which we now live. It couldn't be more serious. As journalist Philip Lawler has observed: "The public consequences of 'private' sexual behavior now threaten to destroy American society. In the past thirty-five years the federal government has spent four trillion dollars on a variety of social programs designed to remedy ills which can be attributed directly or indirectly, to the misuse of human sexuality.
If nothing governs life at its source, then nothing governs life. A contracepting culture is a culture without a future. It's a culture, as T.S. Eliot and Theodore Rossevelt understood, that's committing suicide."
My dad was 26 when he married my mother. She was 20. They both were virgins on their wedding day and are still very much in love over 50 years later. They had three of us children and one child lost to miscarriage. All without birthcontrol (other than keeping track of fertile periods). This is becoming more and more unheard of because our socity doesn't think it is possible anymore. I was talking with 8th graders today and none of them had even heard of the word 'elope'. No reason to elope to get married, everything goes anyway -- even in 8th grade. ):
Regarding your comment that you "haven't come across any doctors that believe life begins at conception." I found a comment by an abortionist from Arizona on the 'I am Dr. Tiller' thread who writes:
"No one, neither the patient receiving an abortion, nor the person doing the abortion, is ever, at anytime, unaware that they are ending a life."
As far as your comment "real scientists", it appears that anyone who disagrees with you is automatically wrong and a junk something or other. So far in the last week alone the list of people you've disagreed with includes counselors, teachers, nurses, scientists, doctors, and spiritual leaders. These people are also parents, community leaders, volunteers, and advocates for minorities, the abused and oppressed. The things pro-life are consistently told by pro-aborts that they should focus on, they have been doing all along.
ReplyDeleteRegarding your comment,"I GUARANTEE you the abortion rate will drop because the number of unwanted pregnancies will drop." You cannot guarantee anyone this. I was around when abortion became legal. The GUARANTEE at that time was that child and sexual abuse would all but disappear because women would now be on equal footing. It didn't and only continues to worsen. I realize you want to be a part of the solution but I still contend you cannot see the forest for the trees. We cannot both be right on this topic. Ever.
I can guarantee to you however, that it's safe outside your box. Come on out -- you will find more true love than you could ever imagine. I know this because I've lived this. "He is wise who gains wisdom from another's mishaps." Publius Syrus
The unborn child you killed DOES affect me and my loved ones. Even if we never meet.
We are offering you a life preserver but you refuse to grab it. My typing this to you is not about being "right" to me, it's about YOU and PCG and FEMily and all the other young women reading this who truly want to make a difference in our world but have been led down the wrong path.
Take Care. Tony
www.rachelsvineyard.org
Ok, ok, so you did respond to my comment and, unsurprisingly, you all hate me.
ReplyDeleteWhat I really wanted to say with my comment is that it's mighty unrealistic to think men will change. The objective of their entire existence is to rape women. If heterosexual intercourse could have ever been consensual, that would mean rape could be prevented by addressing the issue your way. However, it isn't. Sometimes it looks consensual, sometimes it is a part of a financial agreement (married people mostly live in the same household), but is is never actually consensual. (How do I know that? Personal experience. I'd never enjoy sex with a man, no matter how good friends we are or how good he looks.)
So instead of arguing about this and trying to domesticate the male instinct, I think we should focus on organized self-defense. Even the elimination of men, if it is necessary (though I don't think it's absolutely necessary). I know it's hard to accept, but we can't trust any of them, and this includes relatives and friends as well - as somebody said only 8% of (discovered) rape is committed by strangers.
Tony, I will never "join" you.
ReplyDeleteHow does the abortion affect you? Please elaborate on that.
Meredith, you can speak for yourself. I am completely capable of consenting to sex with a man. Don't impose your opinions on me.
Hmm. As far as I know, you could be lying. (In Stockholm syndrome, victims defend their assaulters, after all.)
ReplyDelete"The objective of their entire existence is to rape women."
ReplyDeleteThat is completely false. Men are just as valuable and "pure" as women are. The problem is that our society raises people, particularly men to support the rape culture. Most men aren't rapists, and most men don't have the objective to do harm.
"but is is never actually consensual. (How do I know that? Personal experience. I'd never enjoy sex with a man, no matter how good friends we are or how good he looks.)"
Your experience does not speak for anyone else's experiences. I've been raped and I've also had completely consensual sex with my boyfriend. The two are nothing alike. Please don't equate the sex that me and my boyfriend are having to the traumatizing experience that I had when I was 14. As Not Guilty said, I'm completely capable of consenting to sex with a man. Calling consensual sex rape trivializes a lot of people's experiences.
"So instead of arguing about this and trying to domesticate the male instinct, I think we should focus on organized self-defense."
Calling it "male instinct" and putting the responsibility on the victims to end their own rapes is rape apologism. First of all, even if it was in the male "instinct" to rape (and it isn't), men have the ability to act beyond instinct, just as women do. Second of all, it not our responsibility to not get ourselves raped. When you put the responsibility of ending rape to the people who are or may be raped, you open up the door to victim blaming. You make it easier for people to say "Well, she DIDN'T take self defense classes, so it was her fault anyway!". We don't tell people that, in order to avoid getting hit by a drunk driver, they shouldn't drive. We tell people not to drive drunk.
"Even the elimination of men, if it is necessary"
Eliminating half of the human race? Please tell me that this is a joke, and if it is, it's not a funny joke.
"Hmm. As far as I know, you could be lying."
Instead of trusting us to to make our own decisions, you're going to assume that we're liars?
Meredith, there is a huge difference between not enjoying something and not consenting to something. There are foods I have not liked, but I consented to eating them, I was not force fed. Your experience is a powerful tool for development, so I would not try to discount your own personal experience (which is how you claim to know that all hetero based sex is rape), but your experience is not the same as everyone elses and you should respect that.
ReplyDeleteYou are marginalizing women and men with your 'argument', saying that women cannot think for themselves or ever give their consent, b/c they don't understand the situation. You are also saying that consent in these cases is not theirs to give, b/c of their inability to see beyond societal indoctrination. You are also saying that as men, our only purpose and desires are of a sexual nature, and to that, I say my experience tells you are wrong. But thanks for playing.
Oh, and ProChoiceGal, awesome blog and dialogs that you are starting. Definitely needed and invaluable to us all!
ReplyDeleteYou guys are so amusing. I state the obvious by saying men (instinctively) like to have sex with women, and suddenly a hullabaloo stirs up. So, if men don't desire sex with women, why do they do it?
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, consenting to something and liking something aren't the same thing, but there are subtler forms of force than physical. Such as financial dependence as an already cited example, or (in the case of teens and inexperienced/naive people especially) conning someone into consenting, or blackmail, etc., the list is almost endless.
"I state the obvious by saying men (instinctively) like to have sex with women"
ReplyDeleteYou didn't say that. You said that it was instinct for men to want to RAPE women. There is a huge difference between sex and rape. Most people want to have sex. Most people do not want to rape.
"And yes, consenting to something and liking something aren't the same thing, but there are subtler forms of force than physical."
I agree. This still doesn't make all heterosexual sex rape.
"And yes, consenting to something and liking something aren't the same thing, but there are subtler forms of force than physical."
ReplyDeleteYes, thank you for admitting that there are levels to this. Your previous assertions were presented in such a black and white way, saying clearly that all hetero sex is rape, that it seemed that you did not agree that this issue has layers. It is not all one way.
And as far as instinctively wanting to have sex with women, um, not true. They want to have sex, but gay men prove that the instinct is not always to pursue female partners for this act....and for that point, masturbation teaches us that we needn't a partner at all for this instinctual gratification.
"Most people want to have sex. Most people do not want to rape."
ReplyDeleteAnd what these people do if they can't get any in a "consensual" way....? Bingo.
"for that point, masturbation teaches us that we needn't a partner at all for this instinctual gratification."
ReplyDeleteI blocked three male friends temporarily from my Gtalk because I was tired of their endless whining about how masturbation is not enough and how badly a lack of a girlfriend troubles them. They were extreme cases (in terms of whining), but I see it being present almost everywhere.
(You're right about gay people but I stated at the beginning that that is a separate issue.)
Rape doesn't happen because men "can't get any". It happens because of society's views about women. It's about dominance and power.
ReplyDelete"Your previous assertions were presented in such a black and white way, saying clearly that all hetero sex is rape, that it seemed that you did not agree that this issue has layers. It is not all one way."
ReplyDeleteWell, I can only hope you don't see blackmailing or conning women into sex as ethical. Non-brutal rape is still rape.
"Rape doesn't happen because men "can't get any". It happens because of society's views about women. It's about dominance and power."
ReplyDelete1. How do you know that for so certain?
2. It is true that women are viewed as inferiors in society, and that is indeed a problem. But this prejudice has to come from somewhere. Like, a poor attempt at justification for getting away with rape in the first place.
(And on a sidenote, I, being born a female, know that femaleness is a physical disability - and I wish for it be once cured. That way we'd never have to worry about this issue ever again.)
Meredith, as a woman there are times when I want sex and don't have access to a partner. Most people would go the natural route of masturbation in these instances.
ReplyDeleteI realize that rape happens in other forms than just force, coercion is also a huge factor, especially for acquaintance rape. But that doesn't mean that all sex is forced/coerced.
I've experienced coercive rape as well as consensual sex and there is a huge difference in the two.
Meredith,
ReplyDeleteI am a firm believer that anything less than enthusiastic and excited consent is unquestionably wrong. And I am also a believer that the reason we have this atrocious rape culture is because of a combination of misogyny and lack of education, not simply because we have males in society. Without an open dialog between partners, sex can easily become unbalanced and begin crossing lines.
And like ProChoiceGal said, this is an issue of power and dominance, not sexual desire.
"Most people would go the natural route of masturbation in these instances."
ReplyDeleteIncluding those that know that they never will have any access? (That would be me, obviously, though I don't resort to rape because I have a low sex drive anyway. I never understood what's the big deal about sex, actually - most people see it as an absolute prerequisite to a full life, which just seems weird to me.)
"I've experienced coercive rape as well as consensual sex and there is a huge difference in the two."
Explain this, please. I honestly don't understand you people! Sorry if that offends anyone. I do get aroused occasionally, but sure as hell there are no men involved...
Doesn't consensual here mean simply "coerced by you, the woman participant"? I mean, mostly the coercive men don't see themselves as such either.
Meredith, also on your assertion that 'femaleness' is a physical disability, I am talking to an evolutionary biologist about this claim (after recently hearing it posited on another podcast). Sinead, or Science Dude as she prefers to be called, will be examining the science behind this statement. I do not want to say that it is untrue, given that I have yet to check with my science source, but she seemed somewhat skeptical as did I.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if you could direct me to where you got your info from on this, I would very much appreciate it (I like to gather as much data and background before I do a show.).
"But this prejudice has to come from somewhere."
ReplyDeleteYes, it does come from somewhere. It comes from the attitude that it's our responsibility to not get ourselves raped, or the attitude that women are too stupid to decide what's best for them and their bodies.
"I don't resort to rape because I have a low sex drive anyway"
Because you have a low sex drive? Not because it's wrong? Not because it can traumatize a person for life?
"Explain this, please. I honestly don't understand you people! Sorry if that offends anyone. I do get aroused occasionally, but sure as hell there are no men involved..."
What is there not to understand? For me, rape was traumatic. I still have nightmares about it, and I still cry about it. However, I have sex with my boyfriend most days. It's not the same. For me, consensual sex is an act of love, and rape was an act of terror. Saying that rape and sex are the same is like saying that forced pregnancy and pregnancy are the same. They're not.
It's fine that you don't want to have sex with men. I respect your choice, now why don't you respect mine? I love having sex with my boyfriend. It's nothing like being raped. Nothing at all.
"Doesn't consensual here mean simply "coerced by you, the woman participant"? I mean, mostly the coercive men don't see themselves as such either."
No. If there is any coercion going on, whether it's by a man or a woman, it's not consensual. Here's what I wrote in this blog post about the meaning of consent, in case you missed it
"Consent is not silence or a 'well.. I guess'. Consent is an enthusiastic YES! Consent doesn't mean that one person is just laying there, staring at the wall blankly. Consent is when both partners are very much engaged. Our society has this idea that, unless a woman is screaming for the other person to stop and is using a lot of physical force, that she has consented and it's okay for the man to go on. That is not what consent is."
Not Guilty asks:
ReplyDelete"How does the abortion affect you? Please elaborate on that."
Tony answers:
The same way my liberty affects you.
When I was 25, I was never gonna "join" the married crowd. . . I was never gonna "join" the just say no to weed forces . . . I was never gonna "join" a church. . . I was never gonna listen to the pro-lifers. . .
"Including those that know that they never will have any access?"
ReplyDeleteYes, because like PCG said, we can control our instincts. Most people know that it's wrong to rape (obviously rapists are the exception to this) and will make due with masturbation rather than resort to something that they see as immoral.
When I said that I had experienced both, I meant that I've been in a relationship where I was regularly coerced and sometimes fully forced into sex (aka, was raped). The power dynamic in that relationship was drastically skewed and he used that against me.
However, I'm now in a healthy relationship where I'm on totally equal ground with my partner and have a great sex life.
"Doesn't consensual here mean simply "coerced by you, the woman participant"? I mean, mostly the coercive men don't see themselves as such either."
I'm not sure I understand this statement. Do you think that simply asking for sex is coercion? Neither me nor my partner have ever done anything more than express a desire for sex. If the other isn't up for it, we don't press the matter.
Meredith
ReplyDelete"Most people would go the natural route of masturbation in these instances."
Including those that know that they never will have any access? (That would be me, obviously, though I don't resort to rape because I have a low sex drive anyway. I never understood what's the big deal about sex, actually - most people see it as an absolute prerequisite to a full life, which just seems weird to me.)"
Not only is your assertion her problematic b/c you say that you do not rape b/c you have a low sex drive (meaning that if your drive were higher you would), but also b/c once again you feel like your experience should dictate all behavior. Not everyone shares your experience (nor the views you base on said experience), and it seems that you cannot see any perspective beyond it. You cannot understand or are unwilling to understand women who have a healthy sexual appetite and satisfy that appetite with males.
You continue to claim this is all about an instinct, but then you say that it doesn't apply to gay men or women. How is that? We are all the same species and genetically wired in the same instinctual ways. Yes some people, as you have said, seem to place more value on this desire than you do, but what about that makes them or their desires wrong? Those desires do not automatically make them rapists.
Just b/c one person wants sex, doesn't mean that they will go out and force themselves (to any degree) on anyone. Plain and simple. Bingo.
Angry Hippie-
ReplyDelete"Oh, and ProChoiceGal, awesome blog and dialogs that you are starting. Definitely needed and invaluable to us all!"
Thank you ♥♥♥♥ and thanks for posting!
Ok, whatever, I have to go to sleep now, I have early classes, and there is little use continuing this argument... I still think rape is wrong and should not be tolerated, whether if it is bloody or coercive or whatever. It is just wrong. But war and racism and "white lies" are also wrong, and are still very much ingrained into the human mind/behavior/nature. That doesn't make them right, that just makes them difficult to eradicate. (I'm not yet pessimistic enough to say it is impossible.) Rape/sex is the same category.
ReplyDeleteAs for femaleness being a physical illness/disability, well, what'd you call something that causes you to bleed and hurt like hell? (Sometimes to the point that you can't even get out of bed without 2-3 painkillers... like last week... ugh...)
Tony, granting you liberty does NOT affect my liberty. Granting another group rights (such as homosexuals) does not "take away" from the rights of heterosexuals. So again, how does MY abortion affect you? Answer: in no concrete way.
ReplyDeleteJust because YOU flip-flopped doesn't mean I am incapable of making life decisions at 25. Don't impute YOUR life experiences on me. For that matter, keep your beliefs off my body!
Meredith, ya I could be lying, but what the hell would my motivation be? You are illogical. Stop telling me how I feel.
"So again, how does MY abortion affect you? Answer: in no concrete way."
ReplyDeleteAnd slaveowners owning slaves did not affect abolitionists in any concrete way. So does that make it wrong for abolitionists to oppose slavery.
When basic human right to life, liberty, or property in this country is violated, it is EVERYONE ELSE's business and problem.
"As for femaleness being a physical illness/disability, well, what'd you call something that causes you to bleed and hurt like hell? (Sometimes to the point that you can't even get out of bed without 2-3 painkillers... like last week... ugh...)"
ReplyDeleteLife is pain. For me, for my husband, for my children. Life is also joy. For me, femaleness is no more a disease or disability than life. I take great joy in my femaleness, in my curves, my breasts, my loins, my ability to create life.
There is no reason that having a low sex drive or being female should/would/could stop me from masturbating; it didn't before my molestations, my rape, or my marriage to a wonderful man who respects the word "no." Granted, my sex drive is higher now that I'm a parent, but the concept remains the same. I still don't have much sex, because it's never been a prime directive for me, but that doesn't mean that it's all wrong.
Consensual sex, with enthusiastic participation and desire by both myself and my husband is absolutely, completely different than my molestations or my rape. There is love, there is DESIRE to participate. There is no sick feeling after, no pain, no coercion or force.
4) Wait what? You mean I'm not supposed to do that?
ReplyDelete