You all know who they are. They call themselves "pro-life feminists". They're the ones that claim that "women deserve better" than having equal rights. They're the Susan B. Anthony List. They're the Feminists for Life.
They're liars, frauds, and misogynists.
There is absolutely nothing feminist about forcing women through pregnancies. There's nothing feminist about intentionally traumatizing them. There's nothing feminist about supporting causes and laws that kill women. Nothing feminist at all. Those people are just as feminist as they are pro-life (meaning, not at all).
I'm not the kind of person that will try to take away someone's "feminist card", but I do draw the line at certain points. If someone believes that rape is okay, then that person isn't a feminist. If someone believes that women shouldn't have the right to vote, then that person isn't a feminist. If someone believes that women don't deserve to have bodily autonomy, then that person isn't a feminist. I strongly believe that the only reason these people call themselves "feminists" is not because they care about women, it's because they want to make it look like they care about women, just like antis who kill doctors try to make it look like they care about life. Either that, or they care about women, but only in some cases. It's sort of like how my parents love me, but if it came between choosing between me and a fetus, they'd let their politics get in the way of family.
Personally, I see a pattern. Antis try to take away women's basic human rights, and they call it feminism. They force women through pregnancies and call it reproductive justice. They kill doctors* and call it "pro-life".
You know what the worst part about this is, though? Some, maybe even many, real feminists are okay with anti-choicers calling themselves feminists. Seriously? Would you be okay with someone who believes that women shouldn't get the right to vote calling themselves a feminist? No? Then why call an anti a feminist? I would venture to say that the right to choice (abortion, pregnancy, VBAC, etc) is even more of a basic human right than the right to vote. The right to your own body should be considered a God given right. It's an essential part of our liberty. It should go without saying that someone who believes in taking away a huge part of our liberty isn't a feminist.
It's time to take off that veil, antis. We know who you are, and we aren't about to let you hijack feminism.
*Speaking of killing doctors, in case you haven't heard, Scott Roeder (the terrorist that killed Dr. Tiller) has gotten the hard 50. You're in there for life, terrorist!
Thursday, April 1, 2010
90 comments:
***PLEASE READ***
Due to constant spam and derailing coming from a few antis, I am now making this blog a "safe place". This does not mean that I won't allow opposing views. It means that I'm not longer going to allow hateful or unrelated/spammy comments. This will continue on until the anti-choice spammers get bored with harassing me and the people who post here, and is especially relevant when it comes to the topic of rape. I hope this doesn't deter any respectful people from commenting. :)
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'Pro-Life Feminism' is certainly an upsetting trend. I do think they (even most antis in general) have good intentions but are just misguided.
ReplyDeleteI hate when antis pretend to be feminists. They obviously do not support the equal rights of women. Some antis have even straight out said that bodily domain is a made up idea. If you think women's rights are made up, why call your self a feminist??
ReplyDeleteI still haven't figured out how to reply to "women deserve better than abortion." what is better than being in charge And responsible for yourself and your actions? What is better than equal rights? I haven't figure it out.
Taylor- I agree. However, good intentions aren't enough to erase the damage that they're doing. Good intentions don't mean that they're not still supporting a misogynistic cause.
ReplyDeleteKushielsMoon-
The "women deserve better" statement is just plain idiotic, IMO. Women deserve better than not being assaulted? Women deserve better than having equal rights? Women deserve better than to have control over their own bodies? What?
I think it boils down to antis thinking that they know what's best for each individual women. "You're stupid and don't know how to take care of yourself. You deserve better than that, so I'll control you for your sake." WTFruit?
To me, "women deserve better" means that a woman should be able to carry her pregnancy to term, without fear of not being able to finish her education, or continue with her career. It's clear to me that some women have put education and careers before their own offspring. Women deserve to have it all. Why you guys can't understand that is beyond me.
ReplyDelete"It's time to take off that veil, antis. We know who you are, and we aren't about to let you hijack feminism."
ReplyDeleteWhat are you going to do? Abort us? Why so angry? I have never, ever called a woman nuts in my life but you are totally Cuckoo.
Another ProLife Feminist
Women deserve better than to be constantly put down by women-haters like you. Just yesterday on Twitter you called rape victims who were glad they didn't abort a "nasty batch" and you have repeatedly insulted rape victims on Jill Stanek's blog. If you have any love for any women other than the one in the mirror, I have yet to see it. It's painfully obvious you hate that one, too. Enjoy your bitterness and anger. At the end of your life, it's all you'll have left.
ReplyDelete1) I didn't call the rape victims a "nasty batch". I called the anti-choice group a nasty batch. They're exploiting rape victims in order to hurt other rape victims.
ReplyDelete2) I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. No idea at all.
"To me, "women deserve better" means that a woman should be able to carry her pregnancy to term, without fear of not being able to finish her education, or continue with her career."
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with this but I also believe that women deserve to be able to abort if they wish. I believe that women should have full reproductive freedom and I don't believe that women deserve any less than that.
"As a sexual assault survivor and the mother of a daughter who was raped and sodomized when she was three years old, I am EXTREMELY OFFENDED and SICKENED by ProChoice Gal's assertion that "ant-choicers" are pro-rape. I can't even begin to tell YOU the devastation my daughter's assault caused for my family -- at 21 years old she is still trying to cope with it. I'm sorry Jill, but ProChoice Gal, you can go STRAIGHT TO HELL!!"
ReplyDeleteThat ring a bell? This comment was left on Jill Stanke's blog. That is only one of many responses to your hateful baiting. Never any apology from you. Anyone who wishes can read your woman-hating rants on Jill Stanek's blog and on Twitter. Anyone who isn't in 100 percent agreement with your views is a target, especially women. Women like you make the rest of us look like fools. If that's feminism, please keep it to yourself. And if you were truly a rape victim, I would think you'd be able to muster a wee bit more compassion than the comments that brought on the response above. As a woman, I am deeply ashamed of you. Grow a pair.
I am a pro-life rape victim that you PCG have called a rape apologist. No one is exploiting me. You are exploiting all women with your hatred of not only me but of the pro-life women you constantly dis. This starts with the hatred of yourself. I am so sorry you have been raped and yes even as a pro-lifer I have feelings and can relate because I too have been there. Abortion doesn't just kill the body. It kills the soul of many.
ReplyDeleteYOU ARE THE ONE BEING EXPLOITED YOUNG LADY. That's the beauty of being exploited, you don't know it's happening to you until it's too late. . . . .
ReplyDeleteFeminist for all Females, Born and Unborn
Do you really think I stay to read every single response to my comments on Stanek's blog? Please. I'm not a masochist. This was the first time I've seen that comment, and I certainly haven't seen the others.
ReplyDeleteI'm simply connecting the dots here. Most antis that I've met have been pro-rape. It makes sense, when you think about it. They don't want women to have bodily autonomy, and they even want to punish rape victims for being raped by forcing them through pregnancies. Sure, not every anti is pro-rape, and I don't mean to hurt ANY rape victims (or anyone, actually), but anti-choice definitely support a movement that has a very pro-rape attitude.
Yes, anyone who wishes can go and look for my woman-hating rants. They'll be looking for a long, long time, though.
"If that's feminism, please keep it to yourself. And if you were truly a rape victim"
IF I were a rape victim? If feminism is telling rape victims that they aren't rape victims, then count me out. Thankfully, that's not feminism.
You can be ashamed of me. I don't really care, to be honest. I'm not looking for your approval.
If you didn't mean to cause that kind of hurt and pain to other rape victims, you'd show some class and go apologize. And quit pretending you don't read the responses to your baiting there, because you tweet those same responses to your prochoice buddies all the time, word for word. I'm sure you'll enjoy tweeting my responses here, too, in an attempt to put me down and make yourself look good. Because you're looking for approval every time you do that, approval from those who will agree.
ReplyDelete1) I'm not going to apologize for making a connection between the anti-choice and the pro-rape movement. Anti-choicers relentlessly exploit and bash rape victims. I show the same sympathy to anti-choice rape victims as I do to other victims, but that doesn't mean that I won't step up and say that they're supporting a misogynistic cause.
ReplyDelete2) Actually, I tweet anti-choice responses from my blog to my pro-choice friends. I do tweet about comments from Stanek's blog occasionally, but even then, that doesn't mean that I read every single comment.
I don't care about anyone's approval. I care about doing the right thing.
And you tweet put downs of those who comment here. Your latest tweet was a good example. Why the constant need to put down other women who don't agree with you? And no, you most certainly did NOT show ANY sympathy to the person whose response I posted above, and you know it. So will anyone who reads it. If you didn't care about the approval of your buddies you wouldn't put other women down and laugh at their expense in order to gain that approval. But, by your own admission, you don't care about the person you wounded in the quoted response above, a woman and a mother. You know, the ones you claim to be defending? If you're truly sorry and you truly care, go and say so where you have hurt and offended so many. If not, stay here where it's safe and you're among those who will overlook your very obvious misogyny. You'll make a great abortionist. Unfeeling to the last, except when it comes to number one. You have even dissed rape victims here. Thanks for proving my point. I'm done.
ReplyDeleteYou're just trying to smear me. Please show me where I have dissed rape victims.
ReplyDeleteBut it's ok when you smear other women constantly on Twitter? Did you even read the response I pasted here from Jill Stanek's blog? Do people respond like that when they have been shown compassion by others who have shared their experiences? Hardly. You have repeatedly shown other rape victims there zero compassion. A couple of them just commented before this. No response from you. You don't even care enough about the people you have hurt to go and read their replies and set the record straight. Instead, predictably, it's all about you. As I said, you've proven my point. Enjoy putting me and others down on Twitter now. I'm sure that's a great start to the weekend for someone like you. Goodbye.
ReplyDeletePlease show me where I was "smearing" you. I was commenting on how funny it was that I'm apparently the first person ever that you have called crazy. How is that smearing?
ReplyDeleteRape survivors have to stick together, so I'll never intentionally, knowingly hurt another rape survivor. HOWEVER, that doesn't give them a free pass to avoid getting called out on their misogynistic beliefs. Yes, some (many?) rape victims are also rape apologists. That's not surprising. We live in a world that is dominated by rape apologism. What can you expect?
To me, "women deserve better" means that a woman should be able to carry her pregnancy to term, without fear of not being able to finish her education, or continue with her career. It's clear to me that some women have put education and careers before their own offspring. Women deserve to have it all. Why you guys can't understand that is beyond me.
ReplyDeletePro-choicers want all that, plus the right to plan their pregnancies and terminate unwanted and unhealthy pregnancies. There's no reason women can't have a quality education, rewarding careers, and as many children as they want, without sacrificing their human right of bodily autonomy. In fact, it's the pro-choice and feminist organizations that fight for reproductive rights, equal access to quality education, pay equity, fair adoption policies, daycare and early childhood education, and healthcare. Pro-life organizations simply don't advocate for these things. For these organizations and their most ardent supporters, life ends at birth. They care more about stem cells than they care about you or me or anybody's kids.
And p.s., men have been putting their careers and education ahead of their own offspring since the beginning of time. Surely this bothers you just as much?
That wasn't my comment. Again, you assume. Nevermind, you haven't got enough heart to apologize to the people you wounded. Thanks for admitting to that much at least. Carry on with your hate fest here and your inflexible, compassionless rants on Twitter and other people's blogs. Just don't expect to be respected for them. See ya. Don't bother apologizing to the other rape victims you hurt, it's clear you can't do it. You haven't got it in you. There are lots of other women online you can hate on, I'm sure you'll get to all of them eventually. Good luck with that.
ReplyDeleteJeez, sorry, but it gets kind of confusing when pretty much every anti posts under the name "Anonymous" (I wonder why?)
ReplyDeleteStraight back to tearing down other women on Twitter. And that's supposed to help women how exactly? Carry on with your mean girl's clique. Thanks for exposing Feminism for what it truly is. Hate.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, WHAT are you talking about?
ReplyDeleteI am a different anonymous than the above. I post this way because I believe you are deranged and dangerous. Can't speak for the others that don't put their names.
ReplyDelete"We know who you are?" How so? This sounds threatening to me. I would never tell you who I am because I truly think you are capable of hurting more than just the unborn. But you like to put on your little act that you will be so frightened of all the pro-life "terrorists" once you become an abortionist. But you show a picture of yourself? I see how scared you are. You are a sham and love having your little following. It has nothing to do with being concerned about any of us women.
How about writing about some of the violent crimes that abortionists have been involved in (other than abortion)? Higher than the population in general. Stable bunch of folks.
This was just posted on Jill Stanek's blog in response to your veiled attempts at apology (in which you still managed to accuse rape victims of being pro-rape)
ReplyDeletePCG: Of course! Sex is good, but forced sex is bad. Pregnancy is good, but forced pregnancy is bad. Abortion is good, but forced abortion is bad.
Me: So says a person (yourself) who has a mentality of a rapist and predator against unborn babies and same mentality of many a rapist OF BLAMING THE INNOCENT VICTIMS for getting themselves PHYSICALLY HARMED.
Forced murder against anyone is bad, period.
That is what you support.
PCG: As for some people that have been offended at my anti-choice=pro-rape comment.. I was not trying to say that every anti-choicer is pro-rape (although I'd venture to say that most of them are), just like not every anti-choice is ill-intentioned or misogynistic. HOWEVER, every anti-choice IS support a pro-rape, badly-intentioned, and misogynistic cause.
Me: Then by your logic, you are pro-rapist, badly-intentioned, and misoogynistic since you advocate right of women to kill their own female unborn babies if they don't want those babies because of the genders of the babies.
"I'm sorry, but most of you are still to blame for your rape." Nice.
I think the problem here is that antichoicers see things which don't exist (not literally, I hope, but in conversations). For instance, over at Jill Stanek's blog when they quoted CrissLCox, many antis commented about how she thought her fetus wasn't alive- which she never said. Or that she thought her fetus wasn't human- which she never said.
ReplyDeleteI can almost guarantee that the same thing is happening with ProChoiceGal's comments both here, on twitter and at Stanek's blog. Antis are taking things from the text which just isn't there.
Being a woman doesn't make you a feminist. And when someone says something like "grow a pair," that's obviously anti-feminist, unless they meant a pair of ovaries (of steel!). Just as there are antichoice women today, standing against women's rights to their body, there were women in history who stood against a woman's right to vote. Thank goodness this country is progressing forward instead of backward!
*sigh* You know what I meant by "We know who you are". You know that it didn't mean that I know who you are personally. Seriously. You're just playing dumb, now.
ReplyDeleteIf I show a picture of myself, then antis will criticize me. If I don't show a picture of myself, then antis will criticize me. If I get pregnant and have an abortion, antis will criticize me. If I get pregnant and go through the pregnancy, antis will criticize me. If I'm young, antis will criticize me. If I'm old, antis will criticize me. Hell, they'll probably find a way to criticize me for being left handed.
My point? I don't care about impressing you. You're going to attack me no matter what happens.
By the way, saying that rape victims can also express rape apologist sentiments isn't saying that they're pro-rape. "A woman is partially to blame for her own rape" is a rape apologist view no matter who says it.
ReplyDeleteI'm copying and pasting what she said herself. Anyone can go there and read it in it's entirety. Again, how do you presume your constant put downs of women are going to help women? Just more fun to "make the anti's look silly?" Mean girl's clique. My point? You don't CARE who I am, or any woman who doesn't agree with you. You have proven that tonight beyond a shadow of a doubt. Enjoy your baby bullying and tearing down other women. I'm sure it will advance women's causes lots.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, I have no idea what you're talking about. Honestly. I have no idea what you're talking about me "putting down" women. If I were putting down women for being women, maybe you'd have a point. Are you talking about me calling out misogynistic women on their hatred? Calling out women on their mistakes doesn't make me a woman hater. I do the same thing to men. Women are just as imperfect as men are.
ReplyDeleteThanks for making me laugh. Go and read the whole exchange on Jill Stanek's blog. And don't worry about me, I'm just another "anti on your blog" you can have a good laugh at on Twitter. It doesn't matter that I'm also a woman, all that matters is that everyone agrees with you. You can't even see your own misogyny. I hope you get lots of mileage out of this on Twitter. I'm sure you won't hesitate to make use of my comments here. Just bear in mind as you victimize others that you are just as predatory as those you claim to despise. Enjoy yourselves. You have made one thing perfectly clear-Feminism isn't about womanhood. It's about hate. Thanks again for revealing that to those who may not be aware. Laterz.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, calling out a woman on her mistakes doesn't equal misogyny. You seem to have the illusion that women are perfect. Either that, or you believe that we're too good to be called out on our mistakes.
ReplyDeleteProChoiceGal, the Anonymous at 11:28 was actually quoting me, I believe.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure why they're mixing us up. We have (nick)names which we use and are easy to remember.
Abortion is more than a mistake, it is murder. Are you to good to be called out on it? Women are not perfect but that should be all of our goals. Helping and supporting women kill their offspring is the ultimate evil act. I really believe the only way you could ever live with yourself is to tell yourself that you are helping us. You are not.
ReplyDeleteThe only truly nice heartfelt comments made on here to you are by prolifers. The other comments are made by women held hostage by the guilt they have from killing their children and are pushing the same sick agenda you are. I know, some don't feel guilt. They are past that stage.
And so are you.
As long as it's not you getting called out on your many mistakes, right? You've been called out. Instead of answering, you pretend not to know what I'm talking about. Quite a few other people have called you out on it here and other places. You never answer. Because you can't admit to your own mistakes. You couldn't even manage to apologize to rape victims without lobbing the same insults. You couldn't even apologize at all until you were shamed into it and had to save face here. You are pathetic and I'm not wasting another minute on you. Hater. Go and read your own tweets and comments here. Then take the telephone pole out of your eye. You don't speak for all women, and you sure as hell don't speak for this one, predator.
ReplyDelete"You're a hater, you pathetic predator!"
ReplyDeleteWow.
It's interesting how antis know that I have had an abortion, when I've never heard of this. I wish they could tell me when and why I don't remember it, at all.
ReplyDeletePCG - even in your own blog, it's totally out of line for you to put something in quotes, that wasn't actually said.
ReplyDeleteShe called me a hater, she called me pathetic, and she called me a predator. I was under the impression that everyone knows that she didn't say it the way I worded it, but she did say those things.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the prolifer above 100%, word for word.
ReplyDeleteYou're defensiveness speaks loud and clear. The Truth sometimes hurts but it can also set you free.
It's almost SUNDAY! A Day for New Beginnings and Blessings. Do you realize how much Jesus Loves You PCG? Spend some quiet time listening and He is sure to tell your heart.
Antis who claim every prochoicer is suffering from abortion guilt or has had an abortion (or some such nonsense, I've never figured it out exactly wtf they're talking about) is just as funny as the ones who claim Planned Parenthood pays us to blog and tweet.
ReplyDeleteProChoiceGal could be bitter and hateful. I wouldn't blame her if she were...she's been raped, our culture tells her it was probably her fault, and then complete strangers too cowardly to attach a name or identity to their "views" come and imply she's lying about being raped and a slew of other horrible things.
You know what though? She is NOT bitter and hateful, not in the least. If anyone takes a few minutes to talk to her with even in iota of politeness and common decency, then one knows that she has class beyond that of most people I've encountered on and off line. Same goes for KushielsMoon. Muster up whatever human decency you have left in your sad, sorry soul and talk to either of these ladies respectfully, and you'll learn a lot.
Some of us don't have other sites but how does that make us cowards? Do you want my address so you can come over for coffee?
ReplyDelete"ProChoiceGal could be bitter and hateful?" No, she is bitter and hateful. Very obvious. You are not able to see the world in its totality when you carry this kind of hate around. She just needs to spread it.
Have you had an abortion? Have any of your close friends? Has your mother? Are you a volunteer or do you make money in any way off of abortion. There are reasons you are so vocal about abortion not just because. What is your reason?
If it makes you feel better, InsaneArtGurl, I will give you my name so that you can stop calling us anonomous cowards. My name is SaneProLifeFeminist.
Start listening to us respectfully and you'll learn a lot.
PCG - When you put something in "quotes", it's the same as saying 'and i quote'. You should know better. You don't quote someone unless they actually used the words exactly. If I hadn't seen you do the same thing on twitter, I wouldn't say anything, but mis-quoting, leads to ppl being accused of saying things they didn't say.
ReplyDeleteInsaneArtGurl - You would need to stand on the prolife side of the fence to see where anonymous is coming from. We see consistent hatred for women from the prochoice side.. unless the women are prochoicers. We don't get respect from your side very often. If you compare prolife and prochoice tweets, and look at them with and open mind, you'll see where the disrespect is coming from. You'll see where the hate is coming from.
"She called me a hater, she called me pathetic, and she called me a predator. I was under the impression that everyone knows that she didn't say it the way I worded it, but she did say those things"
ReplyDeleteThen stop being a hateful, pathetic predator. Really. It can be as simple as that.
justsnapd8- See, even Anon herself agrees that she called me a hateful, pathetic predator.
ReplyDelete"We see consistent hatred for women from the prochoice side.. unless the women are prochoicers. We don't get respect from your side very often. If you compare prolife and prochoice tweets, and look at them with and open mind, you'll see where the disrespect is coming from. You'll see where the hate is coming from."
You're fooled if you think that your side isn't hateful at all. Maybe if you'd try reading the anti-choice comments on here, you'd see how hateful your side can be. I hardly ever see hatred on the pro-choice side. It almost all comes from antis.
Question asked of CP on her site:
ReplyDelete"Are you for the death penalty and supportive of war or both?"
Christian Prochoicer said...
"Anonymous- It doesn't matter if I support war or the death penalty, because I don't claim that human beings cannot be killed"
The "pro-choicers" cannot understand why we are against abortion. CPs quote is a perfect example of extreme Terrorist Thinking.
PCG, what say you. What are your feelings on the death penalty and war?
InsaneArtGurl said you might be hateful and bitter. Call her out. Defend yourself to her.
ReplyDeleteCalling you on your behaviors is not hateful. Your actions do show hatred and bitterness. Change your actions and you will change. Telling a child that stealing the candy bar is selfish is not hateful. It's trying to get him to see that his behavior is hurting others.
Eventually how you act, becomes who you really are. Killing/supporting the killing of innocent humans through abortion makes you a hateful, pathetic, predator. Roeder is also a hateful, pathetic, predator. I'm not sorry if this offends you. The Truth is the Truth.
Try reading what she said.
ReplyDelete"ProChoiceGal COULD be bitter and hateful." (emphasis mine)
"You know what though? She is NOT bitter and hateful"
Love ya, InsaneArtGurl!
I'm getting dizzy trying to keep track of where all this conversation is coming from. My blog, stanek's blog, this blog, criss's blog... jeeze.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, it's not "terrorist thinking" to recognize that it is possible to kill human beings. Or do you think that war is just a figment of your imagination? Do you think when people get the 'death penalty,' they are just given a comfy room where no one can see them?
Your inability to live in reality is why we cannot communicate well.
CP,
ReplyDeleteDo support the death penalty? Do you support war? Would you have supported the killing Jews during the Holocaust? Would you have owned a slave? Do you think these acts should be/should have been legalized?
Your inability to answer legitimate questions is why we have communication problems. Abortion is the killing of a human life. That is reality.
Yes or No to the above questions will suffice.
CP,
ReplyDeleteI can't hear you. Can you communicate a bit louder and clearer? Others have asked you these questions before.
Jesus loves us in spite of our sins. However, this does not mean He is both pro-choice and pro-life. You have stated that He is both.
Do you believe Jesus supports people killing their own flesh and blood, born or unborn? This is we humans did to Him. And He was, like an unborn child, completely innocent of anything.
Can you see the correlation? Please, please refrain from calling yourself a Christian. You are throwing rocks at and spitting at Our Lord.
If you both (or is this just one person?) would like to ask these questions on *my* blog, I'd be willing to attempt to answer. I just realized that I shouldn't be hijacking ProChoiceGal's blog like this.
ReplyDeleteMy apologies, PCG.
It's okay, CP. Happens all the time. Love you! XD
ReplyDeleteCP,
ReplyDeleteI am a different person. But you have not answered these questions on your site. Is everyone who disagrees with you hijacking something? Obviously more people are reading here so what's the difference? It not being about you?
It is absolutely unethical and factually wrong to compare owning a slave to having an abortion.
ReplyDeleteThe reason for this is that slaves were FORCED to have children for more slaves and to make money for slaveowners and to build the capitalism system. So you antichoicers would actually support that? You antichoicers would support the systematic rape of slaves so they can breed - and you would condemn them for having abortions?
You're not for life - you're for people to live in the narrow and unrealistic confines of how you see the world.
To the person who made this analogy - you really make me sick.
"The reason for this is that slaves were FORCED to have children for more slaves and to make money for slaveowners and to build the capitalism system. So you antichoicers would actually support that? You antichoicers would support the systematic rape of slaves so they can breed - and you would condemn them for having abortions?"
ReplyDeleteOf course, you don't address what we actually say in the analogy.
Slaves are treated like PROPERTIES and those who owned them argued that these properties are OF PRIVATE MATTER for the slaveowners.
Right to privacy? Right to property (or in your terms, right to do what you please with you define as your body, including the life of another human being you define as your property)?
Sounds so much familar to the pro-abortion and pro-right to kill your unborn baby side. It's PRIVATE PROPERTY, silly.
Same exact arguments slaveowners used.
No, those who make you sick are those who accurately described the parallels.
Oh yeah, slaveowners also argued that abolitionists are forcing their morality and religion unto them.
Same arguments you make as well.
So easy to refute your rants, with history.
Study some history before you embarrass yourself any further.
Start with the Southern declarations of causes of secession.
And by this blog's logic, Susan B. Anthony and virtually all the original feminists would be haters of women since they themselves saw abortion as child murder, infanticide, degrading for mothers to do to their own children in same way degrading for men to treat women like property, etc., etc.
ReplyDeleteNo, more like you abortionists hijacked the feminist movement.
Infanticide- the killing of an infant.
ReplyDeleteInfant- a child in the first year of EXTRAUTERINE life.
Not according to the original feminists like SBA. They clearly stated abortion IS a form of infanticide, dreadful, murder, etc.
ReplyDeleteYour problem is with them.
I guess they must be pro-rape, according to you then?
You're really going to try and argue against medical definitions?
ReplyDeleteThat's your problem. Not mine.
"You're really going to try and argue against medical definitions?
ReplyDeleteThat's your problem. Not mine."
No, medical definitions do have unborn as real live human beings.
Nice bait and switch though, since purpose of this blog entry was to claim hilariously that those who claim to be feminists but are prolifers are actually pro-rapists, haters of women, and anti-feminists.
Sorry, but by your logic, then, SBA and all the original feminists fall into the categories of pro-rapists, anti-women, anti-feminists.
Can't get around that.
Your own hatred are that awful that you end by your own words condemning all the original feminists in your rants, without you admitting to it, when that's the truth and that's fact.
Medical definitions say that fetuses are not infants, and therefore abortions are not infanticide. Do you know what "extrauterine" means?
ReplyDeleteStill bait and switch on your part.
ReplyDeleteSBA and the original feminists disagreed with you on this defintion and saw it more broadly to include abortion which they saw as great offense. By your own rhetoric's logic, they are pro-rapists, anti-feminists, anti-women.
It does not matter here how the term is defined. What is at issue is your obsessive need to label everyone who disagree with on abortion, haters of women and pro-rapists.
You posted on your entry, but can't deal with the fact that by your own rant's logic, that makes virtually every early feminists including SBA herself pro-rapists, anti-women, and anti-feminist.
On medical terms, I'll trust my medical textbook over SBA. Why are you ignoring real, medical definitions?
ReplyDeleteSBA was a good feminist for her time. If she were alive still, I'm convinced that she'd take up a pro-woman, pro-choice stance. A huge reason that she was anti-choice was because abortion was a very dangerous procedure for women. That is no longer the case.
"If she were alive still, I'm convinced that she'd take up a pro-woman, pro-choice stance. A huge reason that she was anti-choice was because abortion was a very dangerous procedure for women. That is no longer the case."
ReplyDeleteWishful thinking there. SBA in her own words called abortion child murder and said she opposed it because it was a crime against humanity and the women who did was guilty of such, and the men who drove them to do it are twice as bad.
SBA herself said preventions AND punishments should be the response to abortion.
Regardless of what she would be today according to your wishes, that does not change the fact of what she WAS, and what she WAS by your LOGIC, would have made her pro-rapist, anti-woman, and anti-feminist.
"On medical terms, I'll trust my medical textbook over SBA. Why are you ignoring real, medical definitions?"
ReplyDeleteMed texts also define human life as beginning at conception, so by logic, that makes abortion MURDER of human life.
No, you just trust it when it suits you.
Regardless though, it is very telling you hide behind med textbook rather than deal with logical implications of your claims that those who disagree with you on abortion are pro-rapists: by such standard, that means SBA and other classical original feminists were, regardless of what you wish to be today, were pro-rapists, anti-women, and anti-feminists.
You've completely ignored what I said about SBA being a good feminist for her time.
ReplyDelete"Med texts also define human life as beginning at conception"
I never said otherwise. I said that medical texts define infancy as the first year of extrauterine life. I have a feeling that you just don't want to admit that you're wrong.
Ask yourself this: Is what you're doing actually promoting discussion? Is smearing me and trying to make me look like an evil person helping anyone but yourself? Is ignoring all of the points that I make really getting us anywhere? Are you really going to change hearts like this?
You're obviously not as interested in helping people as you are in trying to piss me off. Take your son's advice and stop trying to cause tension. I have not and I will not let you get to me, so your efforts are fruitless.
"You've completely ignored what I said about SBA being a good feminist for her time."
ReplyDeleteNo, I didn't. I call for what it is: nonsense.
She was a feminist alright, but the kind that by your logic, would be anti-woman, anti-feminist, pro-rapist, for her time, too.
You simply want to move the goalposts since your arguments of your opposition as pro-rapist came back to bite your behind.
"I have a feeling that you just don't want to admit that you're wrong."
Something you excel at.
"Ask yourself this: Is what you're doing actually promoting discussion?"
I am discussing alright. Your inflammatory attakcs on those you disagree with on the other hand is the very opposite of promoting discussion.
I simply take your own rhetoric and take it to its basic logical implication. If you don't like your own rhetoric being done that way, don't use it in the first place. It's simple as that.
"Is smearing me and trying to make me look like an evil person helping anyone but yourself?"
No, that's something you do and you do much of in regards to those that disagree with you. Playing they are pro-rape card to ridiculous lengths then can't take it when that is thrown right back at you.
Funny, you are accusing others of doing something that you are blatantly guilty of!
"Is ignoring all of the points that I make really getting us anywhere?"
I did not ignore your points.
Your point has nothing do, however, with your blog entry, but is obsfucating the simple fact that in trying to claim those who hold to prolife are pro-rapist, etc., you end up doing the same to original feminists like SBA.
Your "point" on her is simply pure unadulterated revisionism. Her own words outright call abortion murder and any woman doing it awfully guilty of the crime.
"Are you really going to change hearts like this?"
Ask yourself that.
Your rhetoric consists of demonizing folks and making them as evil as you can make them and imputing all the false motives you can creatively come up with, claiming over and over they are pro-rapists.
So, that's rich coming from you.
"You're obviously not as interested in helping people as you are in trying to piss me off."
No, I am refuting your over the top, hate-filled rhetoric.
You sure show your contempt for female victims of rape, if they don't agree with you on abortion, and you insult them with impunity.
Funny, given you exist on prolife blogs to piss folks off with smears and namecallings, that you should whine about your own arguments being used against you, logically nad skillfully.
"Take your son's advice and stop trying to cause tension. I have not and I will not let you get to me, so your efforts are fruitless."
Don't have a son, and it is obvious, it is getting to you, even though my intent is more to show how way off your rhetoric is (not to get to you per se).
So rather than deal with the merits of what I said, falsely accuse me of ignoring all your points (ironic since you do alot of ignoring of points of others yourself so you can keep bashing them) and then put yourself on the pedestal that you are about discussion and civility, neither traits you display very often to those you disagree with on this issue.
Let's put it this way- I can speak for myself and many pro-lifers, that if we were there, when the guy attacked you, we would have done all we could to prevent that, and guys like me would have been prepared to fight to the death to stop that if we were there (given my mentality real men don't do that and deserve a good whopping if they try to in my presence). Just because we find your rantings way off-base does not mean we value your life any less.
ReplyDeleteI hope you know and remember that.
And I am sorry that it happened to you. No one deserved it. None. Zero.
I can't address YOUR analogy of slavery because there is none.
ReplyDeleteWow, but you antichoicers who strive to be perfect and think women are perfect are the epitome of ad hominem attacks and sickening diatribes.
Really I'm an abortionist because I support a women's right to choose?
"Study some history before you embarrass yourself any further.
Start with the Southern declarations of causes of secession."
You anti-choicers are flat out living in your own worlds. Please go on a deserted island and go fuck yourselves.
This argument that women who have abortions are bad feminists because they abort female fetuses is just bullshit as well.
ReplyDeleteSo if a woman dies or will die from having a child then it's a fetuses life over a woman's?
You fuckers are WACK.
Hey antichoicers,
ReplyDeleteone of you fuckers said that women should strive to be perfect. So how the fuck do you get out of bed every morning?
It must be hard being you - wow you're a mother, and most likely a **** going by the diatribes on this blog.
and love that fucker who tried to make out as if others are unreasonable. LOLOLOL, please write more and let others besides your antichoice ilk see the truth and your illogical crap.
Hijacking this brand of feminism is the least of your worries. Please, keep it. We don't want it.
ReplyDelete"I can't address YOUR analogy of slavery because there is none. "
ReplyDeleteYou can't because you can't argue your points, period, so you resort to dishonest diatribes, namecallings, etc. If the analogy falls flat you would be able to refute it. But you can't- which speaks volumes.
You blast us as illogical, yet your screeching posts reveal your own lack of logical skills. If all you got is calling us by f words and telling us how we don't care if women die, then it says how much you need to take your own advice.
Oh by the way, the vast majority of prolifers including myself DO ALLOW for exception in the case of mother's life in danger.
So embarrassing of you to claim falsely about what we believe.
If I did not know any better, I would think you are some troll pretending to be pro-choice to make all pro-choicers look bad but then again I see famous pro-choicers acting the way you do, so never mind that.
So funny you accuse pro-life feminists of hijacking feminism, when original, feminists were ANTI-ABORTIONS and opposed RIGHT to choose what they saw as MURDER OF CHILDREN.
If anything, YOUR SIDE hijacked feminism.
"You anti-choicers are flat out living in your own worlds. Please go on a deserted island and go fuck yourselves."
ReplyDeleteMore proof you can't refute our position and can't refute the arguments about slavery/abortion comparisons. There are many in regards to the rhetoric that BOTH slaveowners AND pro-abortionists/pro-choicers use.
It is like pro-choicers went through a checklist of what arguments slaveowners used and used all those arguments for today.
I know that's not the case, but the many parallels are there- and frightening.
Slaveowners themselves argued by the way for freedom of CHOICE for themselves. That choice to own slaves.
So I guess argument for choice may sound great, until we know what that choice is, right?
And you are the one with the bs trying to argue we don't care about women dying.
It's bs on many different levels.
Like I stated before, most of us do allow exception for mother's life in danger.
But we all know your side's dishonesty on this one. Your side is for abortion rights in all cases, no matter what the circumstance is. So even our side allow exceptions in extreme cases like that, your side is still saying not good enough.
So your argument that abortion should be allowed on the basis of that case scenerio is still disingenous. Most of your opposition grant that exception, and then we all know that's not your goal- your goal is unadulterated abortion rights, so women can "abort" their mistakes, rather than take responsibility for children they help conceived with their men.
"You anti-choicers are flat out living in your own worlds. Please go on a deserted island and go fuck yourselves."
ReplyDeletePCG - to show how mentally balanced you truly are, please write another article entitled Pro-choice Love. The above quote could go on the top of the list.
You are such a SHAM and HIPPOCRITE! The Truth can set you Free.
Anonymous @1:30AM
ReplyDeleteDo you know when Susan B Anthony lived? 1820-1906. I'm sure she held a LOT of values that would be considered sexist and racist in our time. That doesn't mean that she was a great feminist FOR HER TIME. You honestly want feminists of today to have the same values as feminists from her time? Mozart was a great composer, but he sexist and racist. If a music artist were as sexist and racist as he was today, I would never listen to his or her music. But I don't expect Mozart to have the same progressive values as I do.
And past that, I'm not going to bother any more. I'll respond again when you seem interested in a civil discussion. Have a good Easter.
"I'll respond again when you seem interested in a civil discussion. Have a good Easter."
ReplyDeleteI am being VERY CIVIL to you in this blog entry of yours. I am merely pointing logical implications.
Compare that to what you say about others here and on prolife blogs. Civil hardly can be used to define how you say things. You provoked alot of like mannered responses, including from me (and I do admit I got too harsh at you then and there at times, and I am sorry), then complain about those words said to you, when they are replicate of what you said to them previously.
My point stands...SBA was prolife. And the standards you claim about what is pro-rape are standards you and those in your own circle of diehard abortionists make up in terms of definition. So no matter what times she lived in, by your own standards, she was pro-rape in her times.
You said it yourself: there are folks who may have held to sexist and racist views back then and did not hold to what you deem progressive views. Sorry, but by admitting to that, you are also admitting the same for SBA.
You have no problem calling Mozart racist and sexist, no matter the times he lived in. You have no problem accusing others of such living today, but you can't apply those same standards to those who were feminists living in the times of others like Mozart who you have no problem saying as such.
Just pointing out your inconsistencies and moving of goalposts.
Happy easter, and no matter our differences here and on the other blogs I do wish you well and like I said before, I am sorry what happened to you, and I hope that guy who did it to you get a life prison sentence. And as said in above post, I can speak for any given prolifer, in that any of us would have fight for you, if we were there and can stop it, or die trying.
I will try to be gentle to you as much as I can in my responses, even if I feel many times your posts were repulsive and insensitive to those who have been victimized themselves but don't share your beliefs. I don't want to do anything that might hurt you anymore than you already are. Not saying I know how it feels like to be you after all you been through (I can't), but I do know I should not be so harsh in like manner to your posts in that other blog, where I was not as civil as I can be here, knowing what you went through. I am sorry, regardless of what you said to me, for being harsh to you back.
God bless and stay strong,
Punisher
"You honestly want feminists of today to have the same values as feminists from her time?"
ReplyDeleteNot my point at all. I am asking for your own consistency. If you are going to condemn a whole movement as pro-rape, then be consistent and condemn those of the past like SBA as well for that. If she was not feminist, I seriously doubt from how you post, that you would have any restraint from accusing her of such.
And it is you who claim after all pro-life feminists hijack the term feminism. So by what standard?
The original feminists don't hold to your views on this issue.
So how can pro-life feminists possibly be guilty of hijacking a view that originally was made of those who AGREED with them?
"God bless and stay strong,
ReplyDeletePunisher "
Oh, that's who you are. That explains it.
"I'll respond again when you seem interested in a civil discussion"
ReplyDeletePCG you cannot have a civil discussion with a prolifer because you hate us that much. You'd like us all on an island by ourselves doing something to ourselves that is not even physically possible.
Sure would love to refer my daughters and her friends to a caring doctor such as yourself. Just saying.
It seems to me that people who want to legislate the decisions women make about their own bodies simply don't trust women to be able to make those decisions themselves, and arrive at the 'right' answer ~ because to someone who is anti-choice, any answer that does not agree with THEIR point of view is 'wrong'.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard for me to find a feminist position in that.
Sure, promote your point of view, believe whatever you want, but give other women the credit to make decisions based on their own beliefs ~ even if they differ to yours.
Otherwise, you just want to be in charge of other women's lives, and that's not your right as feminists or women or human beings.
"Oh, that's who you are. That explains it."
ReplyDeleteNot the previous anon, but Punisher back on.
It's called being a fan of comic book movie action heroes like Punisher, Batman, Daredevil, etc.
"It seems to me that people who want to legislate the decisions women make about their own bodies simply don't trust women to be able to make those decisions themselves, and arrive at the 'right' answer ~ because to someone who is anti-choice, any answer that does not agree with THEIR point of view is 'wrong'."
ReplyDeleteAnd to anyone who disagree with, they are wrong and anti-choice, so spare us the hypocrisy there.
As well as the hypocrisy of you claiming those who disagree with you are opposed to choices.
No, we are not. We are opposed to choices that violate the rights of others.
But since you want to argue the right to do what one wants with one's own bodies, guess what? Choking someone to death, abusing a child or spouse, raping someone, etc., etc., all involved CHOICE by that person to do what he or she wants to do with his or her own body. It just happens that CHOICE happens to also INFRINGE on the rights of others.
Folks who are degenerates can claim that those are just CHOICES and those who are for making laws against those CHOICES are ANTI-CHOICE and anyone who want to legislate morality against these things don't trust them to do what is right in their own eyes in regards to what they do with their own bodies- even if that INFRINGES on rights of others.
If they use that argument, guess what? It is the SAME ARGUMENT as yours, but only for different crimes and violations of rights of others on other issues. But same rhetoric.
Just because a person is a man who can make choices does not mean we should allow all choices legally for that person. Just because a person is a woman who can make choices does not mean we should allow all choices legally for that person as well.
Not if those choices infringe on rights of others.
Basically, by your logic, if you oppose others certain rights to choose certain things you find to be HEINOUS CRIMES, you would be ANTI-CHOICE.
Sorry, but choices are NOT created equal. Some do NOT deserve to be allowed to be legally sanctioned, and even YOUR SIDE of the debate can't dispute that.
And even your rights to bodily autonomy in regards to your child is limited- can't do hardcore drugs while carrying the baby.
"Otherwise, you just want to be in charge of other women's lives, and that's not your right as feminists or women or human beings."
ReplyDeleteSame arguments slaveowners used against abolitionists. And like them, this don't wash.
When your choices infringe on rights of others to live, it becomes the rest of society's problem, and even more so when it is legalized.
Otherwise, you can't complain or demand acts you find heinous to be made illegal, like murdering abortion doctors (which I also find heinous as well), since you are telling others what to do and interfering with their choices what they want to do, and yes that includes doing what they want to do with their own bodies (since firing guns involve body parts like hands and arms).
Abortions have greatly increased since it was legalized. Are women now just making better choices or perpetuating the lies that were fed to them? Hmmmmmmmm . . . . .
ReplyDeleteTo the most recent anonymous: Umm, are women just reporting the number of abortions more or are they just aborting more frequently since abortion became legal? Hmmm... are women reporting rape more often or are there just more rapes occurring, since it became illegal? If you answered the latter for both then, yes, I guess you can, falsely, assume that women are being fed lies about both rape and abortion. But if you answered the former on rape and the latter on abortion, I guess you have just publicly exposed your own desire to 'have your cake and eat it, too' lies.
ReplyDeleteBesides lies spread about pregnancy are MUCH more common. It's a mere 'inconvenience'. I don't know how many times I've heard that. But facts, of course, don't bear the PL lies out, as usual. Pregnancy is the second leading cause of death, worldwide. Yet, antis seem to think and continue to proclaim that pregnancy occurs in a vacuum and that the fetus just magically appears when it's born. This made so by sheer virtue of the fact that they have to ignore the non-obliviate, thinking, feeling, sensate woman to deny her the same rights that everyone else has, grant the obliviate, insensate, non-thinking and non-feeling fetus MORE rights than anyone born and claim that pregnancy is not life-threatening. It always is. There is NOT a 0% chance that a women will die from pregnancy or childbirth related complications. And many such complications arise when it is too late to save them and, thus, the FEtus.
To the second last anonymous: Btw, fetuses have the same rights as everyone else, WITH the ProChoice movement. White people that were slave-owners wanted to infringe on the rights of Black people even more by making them slaves. Just like ProLifers want fetuses to infringe on the woman's rights, even more by forcing gestation. Nope, doesn't sound like ProCHOICERS support slavery.
Btw, many of the founders of the United States were racist. Are you going to attribute that to the time and day they grew up in or are you going to show some consistency and say that they would have been racist even in this day and age? It is unfortunate but that IS a seemingly obvious point that you continue to miss for some reason.
Rape = unwanted sex. Forced gestation = unwanted pregnancy. Guess what. If there were no right to bodily autonomy, there would be no such thing as rape. NEITHER unwanted sex or unwanted pregnancy could lead to rape OR forced gestation, after all.
"To the second last anonymous: Btw, fetuses have the same rights as everyone else, WITH the ProChoice movement."
ReplyDeleteNo, they don't, and your next sentence refutes this.
"White people that were slave-owners wanted to infringe on the rights of Black people even more by making them slaves. Just like ProLifers want fetuses to infringe on the woman's rights, even more by forcing gestation. Nope, doesn't sound like ProCHOICERS support slavery."
No, you support murder, which is worse than slavery. 1000 times worse. Slavery treats people like property. You treat the unborn like property but not as slaves, but as those you believe should be allowed to be murdered, then on top of that, you blame them for getting themselves killed.
The unborn as result of consensual sex does not infringe on the woman's right. The woman (and the man) did the act that put the unborn into living and put the unborn in position to depend on the woman.
By saying that you have the right to kill the unborn, you don't believe the unborn have the same rights as everyone- right to life obviously, right to liberty (in being secured from bodily harm), and property (since the unborn has body of his or her own, and that bodily integrity you so preach, you deny to others). In your view they should not have due process, for their rights to life, liberty, and property to be taken away.
Criminals, including mass murderers, have more rights than the unborn!
"There is NOT a 0% chance that a women will die from pregnancy or childbirth related complications. And many such complications arise when it is too late to save them and, thus, the FEtus. "
ReplyDeleteThat's ironic since the vast majority of pro-lifers do believe that women should have right to abort if their lives are endangered as result of them having the unborn (out of principle of self-defense and right to lives of their own).
But, hey, don't let that being a lie stop you from spewing your propaganda.
This was... Confusing.
ReplyDeleteThat Anon started attacking you out of no where.
I think it's very simple. True feminists believe that women deserve rights.
In many undeveloped countries, women are worthless: they go from the rule of their fathers to the rule of their husbands, they're beaten and raped by these men and others, and their bodies are covered from head to toe in burqas. All this is because the men ruling these countries don't believe women have control over their bodies.
Feminists believe women should have control over their bodies. To think otherwise encourages the oppression of women. It's really that simple.